IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: gnonyx on November 06 2021, 01:43:03 PM
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Hi All,
I though I was finally able to put my 87 GN on the road after doing a lot of work for so many months, and the only thing that is in my mind and Steve mention to do is to replace the intake manifold gasket. I already did a smoke test during the time of replacing the Throttle body area gaskets, exhaust area and found no leaks.
I did wanted to clean and relocate the ground wires behind the pass. head, and I tried to remove the ground bolt in many different location, but still no good. So I decided to remove the manifold, and valve spring cover to reach the ground wires for easy access.
While the valve cover is remove I'm also going to replace the valve springs, and now I question is which valve springs.
I was reading on the other forum and one Buick member claimed the following:
The 980 is too soft, too soft even for a stock cam. The 981 will be a big improvement. 86lb@1.75 with a 373Lb rate.
The SpeedWay Z28 spring 180671515 is also a good choice. Just Slightly more than the 981, only 5lbs or so. 91Lb@1.75" with 379lb rate.
I already ordered the following:
Manifold valley pan gasket - FEL-PRO MS96033
Premium Valve Stem Seals - FEL-PRO SS72623
Being this will be my first time doing a valve spring replacement, does any member do this type of work doing pre measured for height and compression?
I have an no smoke unopen engine with 92,000 miles, with the following:
87 GN T-Top, ScanMaster, Racetronix hot-wire kit with fuel pump, Commander chips with 60# injectors, adj. fuel pump, triple pod gauges w/ Auto Meter A/F gauge, oil pressure gauge, vac/boost gauge, Kenne Belle rear seat brace, upgraded transmission w/ Art Carr pan cover, Brute Force Universal Joint, RJC stock plenum plate and 3" GM MAF.
Thanks
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Go back and read all the valve spring stuff that was in XracerX13's thread. As you are not running high boost, your situation should not be particularly crucial....and you are not running higher than normal rpm's either. I forget what Joe ended up about shimming but he covered everything as I recall.
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Go back and read all the valve spring stuff that was in XracerX13's thread. As you are not running high boost, your situation should not be particularly crucial....and you are not running higher than normal rpm's either. I forget what Joe ended up about shimming but he covered everything as I recall.
I read XracerX13's threads, and he wanted to stay under 90# stock pressure, but a lot of TR user claimed the 980's are too soft even for stock cam, and once the break it period, and driving the 980's might even drop 10#'s.
Many with stock cam replaced with the 981's, but you have to measure and shims, and that is something I don't have the tools.
There are many options of valve spring replacement for stock cam, but what I'm looking for is someone has the talent and experiences in doing these measurements, with attached shims if needed, so all I have to do is install them.
If the best option is to go with 981, NAPA springs, or even Kirban.
Steve, You wrote about Kirban valve springs:
Kirban sells that are rated at 100 psi and I think that is at 1.727. The spring rate is 430 according to Kirban (NOTE, his site says maximum lift is 430 so I am just guessing that is rate but I don't know) so they would be a bit stiffer than the 981s when on the nose of the lobe.
I know I can call Kirban and ask him the same question I'm asking you, do think Kirban valve springs are direct replaceable?
Do you know or recommend anyone who can measure attached with correct shims per valve springs?
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Did you notice that I said you don't need as much because you are not running high boost, or high rpm?
I would just stick the 981's in without any measuring or shimming and be done with it.
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Did you notice that I said you don't need as much because you are not running high boost, or high rpm?
I would just stick the 981's in without any measuring or shimming and be done with it.
What about the valve springs of dealing with shims , and height measurement.
Okay, the 981 height is 1700, and yet Kirban sells that are rated at 100 psi at 1.727
Don't I need to add some shims to make the differences of height if I use the 981?
By the way, did you finally put the big block engine on your other car?
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Quote from: Steve Wood on November 06 2021, 08:54:23 PM (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=6689.msg95690#msg95690)Did you notice that I said you don't need as much because you are not running high boost, or high rpm?
I would just stick the 981's in without any measuring or shimming and be done with it.
What about the valve springs of dealing with shims , and height measurement.
Okay, the 981 height is 1700, and yet Kirban sells that are rated at 100 psi at 1.727
Don't I need to add some shims to make the differences of height if I use the 981?
By the way, did you finally put the big block engine on your other car?
Reply 3, 2nd sentence. I'm gonna go have a beer and calm down.
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Steve, these are graphs of SpeedwayZ28 springs...they're 5 pounds heavier than 981's. Thought maybe these graphs would be a good illustration as to what happens with soft springs for the guys. Maybe add another chapter to your site. P.S. Your patience level is in the stratosphere. Top graph is 980's...bottom is SpeedwayZ28's.
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Just stick them in like a million before you. Don't worry about the shims. All the shims will do is make them a bit stiffer but they are already stiffer than factory so there is no need to add shims and add more tension. If you were running 25 lbs of boost and 5800 rpm, I would add the shims or use a different spring but you are not, to my knowledge. Kirban springs have nothing to do with this as you have comp springs.
The engine swap is in the middle of a snag. I think the new torque converter is a bit off spec and appears to not want to go far enuf into the transmission. Needs to go another 1/8" to give me the properly flex plate clearance so it won't take out the pump or thrust bearing. Also the transmission we used does not have a mounting boss to hook the column shifter to. I made a bracket but that was in the way of the cooler lines and the throttle valve cable. then I noticed a cracked tail housing transmission mounting point.
We called time out, got a new transmission and Dusty is putting us in line for another converter in case I am right. If my son ends up making it up for Thanksgiving, we will try to drop the transmission and see if I right in my thought that the converter was mis-welded or not. In other words this friggin' car should have been finished a year ago but life interferes when my son lives 300 miles away and covid has interfered with him getting up since the 4th of July.
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Quote from: Steve Wood on November 06 2021, 08:54:23 PM (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=6689.msg95690#msg95690)Did you notice that I said you don't need as much because you are not running high boost, or high rpm?
I would just stick the 981's in without any measuring or shimming and be done with it.
What about the valve springs of dealing with shims , and height measurement.
Okay, the 981 height is 1700, and yet Kirban sells that are rated at 100 psi at 1.727
Don't I need to add some shims to make the differences of height if I use the 981?
By the way, did you finally put the big block engine on your other car?
Reply 3, 2nd sentence. I'm gonna go have a beer and calm down.
Hi Scoobum,
I thank GOD that Steve has patience's for people like me who asks questions of the unknown to many would thing its minor.
When it comes to valve springs, there are many version of installing valve springs, as to using with shims or not, and the type of springs that needs to be shim or not. these questions and many more are things that helps me and others to understand about the valve springs. Especially like myself I like to installed them once and not need to remove the valve cover to add shims after break in or valves springs making loud tapping noise. Again, this may sounds stupid, but like I always say, a stupid question is one not being ask.
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Just stick them in like a million before you. Don't worry about the shims. All the shims will do is make them a bit stiffer but they are already stiffer than factory so there is no need to add shims and add more tension. If you were running 25 lbs of boost and 5800 rpm, I would add the shims or use a different spring but you are not, to my knowledge. Kirban springs have nothing to do with this as you have comp springs.
The engine swap is in the middle of a snag. I think the new torque converter is a bit off spec and appears to not want to go far enuf into the transmission. Needs to go another 1/8" to give me the properly flex plate clearance so it won't take out the pump or thrust bearing. Also the transmission we used does not have a mounting boss to hook the column shifter to. I made a bracket but that was in the way of the cooler lines and the throttle valve cable. then I noticed a cracked tail housing transmission mounting point.
We called time out, got a new transmission and Dusty is putting us in line for another converter in case I am right. If my son ends up making it up for Thanksgiving, we will try to drop the transmission and see if I right in my thought that the converter was mis-welded or not. In other words this friggin' car should have been finished a year ago but life interferes when my son lives 300 miles away and covid has interfered with him getting up since the 4th of July.
It's too bad my wife and I don't live near you, as I would definingly help you out, but not the early in the morning stuff; that's too early for me. :icon_lol:
My wife like Texas and was in San Antonio for a while, but she claimed the lightning are just close to the ground, and now we're in South Carolina, previous born and raise in New York.
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I could suck it up and get it done. I know a guy or two that would help me but besides not being motivated, my son needs to be part of the work so he can learn how it went together for when I am not around to be asked.
Took me a week to build four wheel cradles to set it upon to make it easier to get under. I have a four post lift but I decided it would be easier to just get it up on blocks and not have to work around the wheel ramps on the lift.
Your wife was right. Had a storm the other night that was so close to me that the I heard the thunder the same time I saw the lightning. I thought the house was gonna get knocked off the slab from the concussions.
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Kirban springs have nothing to do with this as you have comp springs.
Hi Steve,
I was reading over the threads again and I was asking about Kirban since I don't have comp as the only two I was thinking of was comp or Kirban.
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Are you familiar with Bison?
I ordered a set of measured & matched valve springs, timing set, gaskets, etc. I thought the pricing was reasonable.
I had trouble swapping the springs, but that was my fault. Make sure you bring the piston to TDC on each cylinder before you compress the valve spring.
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Fire the compressor up...screw the spark plug adaptor in...put the bottom lock in in first...then the top. I'll be here all week.
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Okay , I'm here to start an war or argument, but need some education on how to install valve springs from start to finish.
Yes, I know Steve you claimed just get the comp cam 981's and install them since I'm not going to 5,000 rpm.
I forgot what were the factory's spec. of the highest rpm?
Someone did mention that #3 exhaust spring has less tension than the others due to the slight misalignment issue between lifter & lobe that is present, because it spins slower because of an engineering flaw in the bore placement and is much more prone to failure. With this one will need to replace the #3 exhaust with a weaker valve spring.
Again This info is new to me as installing valve springs is new to me, but I enjoy learning and listen to others expertise on how to do this type of replacement.
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Don't believe I said that at all :)
Also, No one said that 3E had less tension on it. 3E tends to spin slowly as compared to the others. That makes it more susceptible to wear. It happens because the number 3 exhaust lobe on the cam sits almost directly centered under the lifter bore hole so that the lifter is right on top of the lop instead of being set with the lifter base center on the edge of the lobe which causes it to rotate (due to a small taper across the lobe fore and aft and the convex bottom of the lifter.
There is no factory spec. I was referring to the usual shift point from the factory which was around 4800 rpm as delivered. When we install non factory cams with more duration, we often shift 5400-5800 depending upon the cam and the power band we have. There was nothing wrong with the valve springs as delivered from the factory on the factory cam other than they wore out frequently between 40-50,000 miles of driving.
We install slightly stiffer springs of better quality to last longer and give us a bit more stable operation around 5000-5400 rpm if we are trying to get the best performance out of the factory cam or we are putting higher boost than stock into the engine which means the boost is trying to push the intake valve open as it overcomes the spring pressure holding the valve closed except when adding fuel/air at the proper time.
If you are unsure as to how to change the springs, the best idea would be to find some one local to help you. Otherwise there should be a number of good videos and articles on line showing how it is done.
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Here are the factory valve spring pressures. 1.727" is the normal installed height with the valve closed. If you reduce that height there will be more tension on the spring and the pressure would be slightly greater depending upon how much shorter the installed height becomes. If a spring spec shows 1.700 as the installed height, and you install it at 1.727", then it will have a bit less tension installed than that shown in the specs for that particular spring.
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Don't believe I said that at all :)
Hi Steve, Please understand my last thread was not about you, and trust me I have a great deal of respect to you. :cheers:
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Here are the factory valve spring pressures. 1.727" is the normal installed height with the valve closed. If you reduce that height there will be more tension on the spring and the pressure would be slightly greater depending upon how much shorter the installed height becomes. If a spring spec shows 1.700 as the installed height, and you install it at 1.727", then it will have a bit less tension installed than that shown in the specs for that particular spring.
Steve, I have been reading and doing a lot of research, as this is a learning experience for me. I have been doing my own mechanical work on my GN since day one and that is going on 33 years of owning it.
I learned a lot from my father at younger age, but some learning do slip away like trying to learn how to rebuilt a older caddy tranny in the winter on the driveway, and no it was fun trying to learn that.
The photo shown; will this comp cam 981-16 spec is okay use?
Thanks, Julio
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All 981 springs have the same spec. I would ignore everything written on the box. I would remove the current springs, one at a time and install a 981 spring in its place. I would not measure any thing. I would not use any shims. I would simply install a spring and damper (the inner spring looking device), put the retainer on and install the keepers. Then I always put a large socket on the retainer and give it a tap with a hammer to make sure the locks are located correctly in the retainer and won't jump out. When I finish a side, I pour oil over them so the don't start dry and get hot on the first start.
Only the intakes get a seal.
You will most likely need a valve spring tool made for a Buick turbo to get in to the rear passenger side. I bought mine from Cotton. I think most vendors sell them.
.
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I would use new matching retainers and locks if I did it to make sure everything fit just right.
Steel Retainers:728-16 / 750-16
Tool Steel Retainers:1750-16
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All 981 springs have the same spec. I would ignore everything written on the box. I would remove the current springs, one at a time and install a 981 spring in its place. I would not measure any thing. I would not use any shims. I would simply install a spring and damper (the inner spring looking device), put the retainer on and install the keepers. Then I always put a large socket on the retainer and give it a tap with a hammer to make sure the locks are located correctly in the retainer and won't jump out. When I finish a side, I pour oil over them so the don't start dry and get hot on the first start.
Only the intakes get a seal.
You will most likely need a valve spring tool made for a Buick turbo to get in to the rear passenger side. I bought mine from Cotton. I think most vendors sell them.
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Check all over for a good price of parts and gasket and the only was RockAuto
Intake manifold gasket: FEL-PRO MS96033
Intake valve guide Seal: FEL-PRO SS72623
GM TBI Fuel Line O-Ring Kit; Dimensions - Inches: 1/4, 3/8"; Contents: 2 O-Rings
Already got the valve spring tool from Cotton's Performance a while back and if you go to his site now there is nothing there since there is a message on his site:
Welcome to Cotton's Performance's new website!
Big Changes are happening here at Cotton's Performance! With almost 30 years servicing the race car and automotive industry, Jack Cotton has retired and has passed down the business, his expertise and experience to his son Brian Cotton!
I replaced just about all gasket except the biggest one, the Intake manifold gasket. Once I remove the intake manifold, and pass. valve cover I will finally be able to reach the ground wires behind the heads. I will clean bolt together with #8 wire to relocate on top of intake manifold once I put in back.
Thanks Steve for your help and I will post again once I finish or run into trouble:) Julio
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I would use new matching retainers and locks if I did it to make sure everything fit just right.
Steel Retainers:728-16 / 750-16
Tool Steel Retainers:1750-16
WOW, I can't believe the price for both of these items
Is it possible to still use the existing retainers?
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I believe these springs are very slightly larger in diameter than factory springs so they will rub in a different place on the retainer than the factory springs did.
I am sure many have reused the original retainers, but, personally, it makes me nervous to put 35 year old parts on top of new parts and I would wait until I could at least get the retainers and preferably the locks as well.
BUT opinions will vary and I would see what Brad, Ed, and Jeremy or others think. My feeling is that dropping a valve might cost a whole bunch more than the price of the new parts. I am old and hard headed. That does not necessarily mean I am right LOL
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I believe these springs are very slightly larger in diameter than factory springs so they will rub in a different place on the retainer than the factory springs did.
I am sure many have reused the original retainers, but, personally, it makes me nervous to put 35 year old parts on top of new parts and I would wait until I could at least get the retainers and preferably the locks as well.
BUT opinions will vary and I would see what Brad, Ed, and Jeremy or others think. My feeling is that dropping a valve might cost a whole bunch more than the price of the new parts. I am old and hard headed. That does not necessarily mean I am right LOL
would these be okay
Comp Cams 750-16 10 Degree Hardened Steel Valve Spring Retainers
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Look at the comp cam catalog online and see if they are an option
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Look at the comp cam catalog online and see if they are an option
Go choice Steve, I looked at Comp cam site and hopefully this what I need: I'll call them to confirm
https://www.compcams.com/single-outer-valve-springs-1-254-o-d-880-i-d.html
https://www.compcams.com/10-steel-retainers-1-250-spring-dia.html
Just realize I don't need 16 being out TR is only a 6 so only need 12 valve springs and 12 steel retainers
and their price is good compare to other places
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I would use new matching retainers and locks if I did it to make sure everything fit just right.
Steel Retainers:728-16 / 750-16
Tool Steel Retainers:1750-16
Hi Steve, I called Comp Cam and asked about:
981-12 (V6) Single Outer Valve Springs: 1.254" O.D., .880" I.D.
Steel Retainers 750-12: 10° Steel Retainers: 1.250" Spring Dia.
Steel Retainers 742-12: 7° Steel Retainers: 1.250" Spring Dia.
During the conversation I asked what is the between 7° & 10° for our V6, but got cut off, redial but on waited too long for connection. Unless you know which degree I can use.
Anyway, I started disassemble the intake manifold and valve cover, it may be slow for others but it took me about 3.5 hrs. to remove both.
The real P.I.A. was the last pass. intake bolt that was hided behind the tranny dip tube. I had to remove the tranny bolt that hold the tranny dip tube in order to remove the intake manifold bolt. I tried to keep as much on the intake as possible, leaving the fuel rail on, Throttle Body vacuum block, twin heater tubes that connected together, Throttle cables bracket, and all sensors. I found out for me to remove the intake manifold was to raise the rear intake first in an angle and keep the front intake lower, and then sliding the intake backwards. This was to avoid the return fuel rail without bending out of it's original shape. Now I have a lot of time for cleaning the intake manifold, engine valley, and it looks like I might have to remove the intercool in order to rotate the engine since I'm using the rope method of replacing the valve springs.
Thanks
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I am pretty sure the factory used 7 deg locks and retainers. 10 degs are stronger but I don't think they are needed for 90 lbs springs. I suspect ten degree units are more expensive but I have not looked at prices.
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I am pretty sure the factory used 7 deg locks and retainers. 10 degs are stronger but I don't think they are needed for 90 lbs springs. I suspect ten degree units are more expensive but I have not looked at prices.
Both retainers Prices:
https://www.compcams.com/7-steel-retainers-1-250-spring-dia.html - 742-12 - $55.95
https://www.compcams.com/10-steel-retainers-1-250-spring-dia.html - 750-12 - $55.95
Would it make a difference if using a 7 degs or 10 degs?
According the comp cam site spec:
742-12
COMP Cams® Part# 742-12
Includes 12 Retainers
Chevrolet V6 and Small Block, Buick V6
7° Lock Angle - 11/32" Valve Stem Size - 1.250" Spring Diameter
COMP Cams® Part# 750-12
Includes 12 Retainers
Super Lock™ Retainers
10° Lock Angle - All Valve Stem Sizes - 1.250" Spring Diameter
I think after reading the 742-12 might be a better choice, what do you think?
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Pretty sure I just said 7 drugs should be fine
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Quote from: Steve Wood on November 09 2021, 05:52:10 PM (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=6689.msg95721#msg95721)I would use new matching retainers and locks if I did it to make sure everything fit just right.
Steel Retainers:728-16 / 750-16
Tool Steel Retainers:1750-16WOW, I can't believe the price for both of these items
Is it possible to still use the existing retainers?
Which is cheaper. New locks and retainers, or dropping a valve.
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Why did you remove the intake to replace valve springs??? But since you did I would remove the heads and send them out for a machine shop to go over. Get a mild competition valve job with a little bowl work. Should be about $300 plus parts. After all these years I bet the head gaskets are long overdue for replacement.
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I wondered the same. That's a good idea. Get them rebuilt. Might need some valve guide work.
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Well, this snowballed. If it was my car I'd change the seals/springs and send it.
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Julio has been planning this since at least 2013 as I found posts from that period elsewhere when I was verifying something. I'm not sure why he pulled the intake but at this point, all the work is done except for pulling the bolts out of the headers and out of the heads :)
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Well, this snowballed. If it was my car I'd change the seals/springs and send it.
Agreed. If the compression is even on all cylinders and there's no oil consumption, throw the seals and springs on it and get out there and beat on it like a seal pup.
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After 34 yrs everything is worn and needs to be looked so were do you start. Personally I would do nothing and enjoy the car. If you do race the car or beat on it in the street then based the money available I would R&R whats really needed first.
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Quote from: Steve Wood on November 09 2021, 05:52:10 PM (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=6689.msg95721#msg95721)I would use new matching retainers and locks if I did it to make sure everything fit just right.
Steel Retainers:728-16 / 750-16
Tool Steel Retainers:1750-16WOW, I can't believe the price for both of these items
Is it possible to still use the existing retainers?
Which is cheaper. New locks and retainers, or dropping a valve.
I defiantly do greed with the new locks and retainers
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Julio has been planning this since at least 2013 as I found posts from that period elsewhere when I was verifying something. I'm not sure why he pulled the intake but at this point, all the work is done except for pulling the bolts out of the headers and out of the heads :)
Good memory Steve, and age is just a number, as you have proved that many times over. YOU :rock: MY MAN
Every time I wanted to put the GN on the road something comes up and for the most part I decided to do many projects, and remodel work around the house.
Now that majority of the projects work is done I can now focus on what I need to do the maintenance the GN needs.
The following are the replacement:
repaired and welded cracked headers, installed factory style
removed and blocked off EGR
replaced ignition module and coli pack
replaced spark plug NGK UR4 and wires (10mm)
replaced fuel filter
removed all fuel injectors and professional cleaned
repaired several vacuum leaks
replaced Idle Air Control Valve
replaced Throttle body vacuum block
installed RJC power plate and replaced all throttle body gaskets
replaced original MAF with 3" GM MAF, added translator
replaced front upper/lower ball joints
replaced front/rear coil springs
replaced front/rear bushings
These are some of the replacement I have done over the years of owning for 33 years ago
I don't race or beat the car, and yet I don't baby it either
The reason why I removed the intake manifold is I have replaced just about all upper gasket except the intake, and I felt before removal the intake ports might be dirty or water passageway might be a little clog. The car temperature has been running around 173 to 187* scanmaster ATS is 143 while in the summer hours in SC is about 90+.
I glad I removed the intake as you can see the water passageway is started to clogged.
I wiped the intake gasket as some few drop of water felt onto the gasket while removing the intake manifold, but my personal feeling the intake and the vale springs area is pretty clean.
Both radiator sections was boiled, repaired, and top cap was resolder about 15 years ago. Right now I'm using small amount of blended antifreeze, with distilled water and RMI-25 Coolant Additive. prior to this I was using full antifreeze while living in NY.
Drove the car down the block almost every month and ran real strong, and for years no smoke, and no oil leaks.
Yea I know all TR leaks oil.
Believe me my GN don't leak no oil, the garage floor is always dry
replaced Rear end seal
replaced timing chain with Cloyes single chain
replaced valve cover using Victor gasket
Steve, I'm also going to order the locks (648-12) to match the valve springs and retainers
there are two types of locks:
https://www.compcams.com/12-pairs-steel-street-locks-1-groove-7-176-angle-11-32-stem-size.html - 601-12
https://www.compcams.com/12-pairs-machined-steel-race-locks-1-groove-7-176-angle-11-32-stem-size.html - 648-12
Please look at these and let me know what you think.
Also, can I just remove the 3 bolts that hold the rocker arms without removing the white buttons?
Thanks
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No need to touch the white nylon plugs. Just pull the three bolts
Either set of locks will work as you are not running a high pressure spring. Only three bucks or so difference in them.
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No need to touch the white nylon plugs. Just pull the three bolts
Either set of locks will work as you are not running a high pressure spring. Only three bucks or so difference in them.
Thank You Steve for all of your help
Once I get the valves springs, retainers, and locks, and start to install them I will post again; if I don't run in trouble
Have a nice weekend, Julio
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To whom ever reads this in the future:
The Comp 981's without shims @ 1.727 end up being around 92-95psi seat.
They (Comp cams)state that at 1.7 the 981's are 105psi.
You don't want to shim these to 1.7 for a stock cam or you'll be in the 100-105psi seat area and I think that's a little much for the stock flat tappet cam.
Unless your gonna run super high boost on your new roller cam with ported heads, etc., then and only then should you use the 0.030" shims on 981's. Again just my opinion.
The 980's with .030 shims brings them to 1.697 and around 88-90lbs. Pretty darn close to 1.700
That's 1.727 - .030" shims = 1.697" seat height.
They (Comp cams)state that at 1.7 the 980's are 92psi.
Now if you put in 980's without shims (@1.727)then you will be Screwed down to like 78psi. Worse than stock especially after break in it would end up being less.
Don't make the same mistake probably 1000's of people have made by following the idiotic youtube video that says to just put in the 980's without shims. I can't believe that's even still up on youtube.
Either way ...980 shimmed with .030's or 981 without shims it will be a seat of the pants difference.
Steve is right that the 981's alone without shims are fine.
I just went the 980 route to keep at or below 90psi.
I did not replace the valve locks and retainers . The factory locks and retainers are the 7 Degree type.
Now in regards to the valve rocker retainer buttons, I replaced mine while I was in there. I did notice quite a few had become brittle as they were removed. They are like a $1 a piece so why not do it.
For the valve seals I just used the Felpro ones.
As far as valve cover gaskets I went with Jason's gaskets at RJC racing. They are really thick, less prone to leaking, and can be removed and reused no problem.
Obviously sand blasted the valve covers and repainted them. They were painted with Cast aluminum in a spray can and they came out great.
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the spring rate for the 981's calculated to be 95 psi at 1.727 when I checked it the other day. I suspect they will quickly drop down a bit more.
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that's why I put 92-95 :-)
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Good to know math still works😱😆
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No need to touch the white nylon plugs. Just pull the three bolts
Either set of locks will work as you are not running a high pressure spring. Only three bucks or so difference in them.
Thank You Steve for all of your help
Once I get the valves springs, retainers, and locks, and start to install them I will post again; if I don't run in trouble
Have a nice weekend, Julio
Hi Steve,
I removed the rocker assembly, clean everything, now just waiting for the comp springs to be deliver.
I'm glad I removed the intake manifold, both rubber gaskets were dried and brittle.
Ordered the 981's with the retainers, and steel locks 7 Degree
also I will need to order a Heater Inlet/Outlet Pipe Assembly, thermostat, will replace the nasty white nylon plugs, being the total cost of $20.00.
I removed the all grounds wires from behind the pass. head, bolted them together and then used electrical rubber tape and then wrapped with electrical vinyl tape; not for high voltage, but to keep it dry from moisture. I did bolted behind the engine block where 2 ground wires where bolted before, and here it's more accessible if needed.
I will post as once the springs arrive.
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You can tighten it on the rear intake stud like I show in my grounds vid.
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Be sure you order a new thermostat housing while you are at it. Smear a little grease on the rubber seal before you reinstall it.
Probably 95% of the people install the ground bundle on the rear intake stud as Brad said. One of my cars is that way and the other one has the Caspers ground relocation kit and also Caspers fusible link relocation kit. Smarter people probably just make their own LOL
I have often used this stuff on connectors before reconnecting things https://www.amazon.com/DeoxIT-D5S-6-Contact-Cleaner-Integrated/dp/B0002BBV4G/ref=psdc_3230976011_t2_B00E1QZ01S
I have often found these useful when doing wiring projects on cars. https://www.camarocentral.com/1967_1971_Battery_Cable_Junction_Block_With_Nut_p/wir-341.htm I am glad you made me think of them as I should have a few out in the shop and I can use one or two on my station wagon rewiring project. Pretty sad when an old man can improve old Mopar factory wiring by at least a 1000% :D
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Be sure you order a new thermostat housing while you are at it. Smear a little grease on the rubber seal before you reinstall it.
Probably 95% of the people install the ground bundle on the rear intake stud as Brad said. One of my cars is that way and the other one has the Caspers ground relocation kit and also Caspers fusible link relocation kit. Smarter people probably just make their own LOL
I have often used this stuff on connectors before reconnecting things https://www.amazon.com/DeoxIT-D5S-6-Contact-Cleaner-Integrated/dp/B0002BBV4G/ref=psdc_3230976011_t2_B00E1QZ01S
I have often found these useful when doing wiring projects on cars. https://www.camarocentral.com/1967_1971_Battery_Cable_Junction_Block_With_Nut_p/wir-341.htm I am glad you made me think of them as I should have a few out in the shop and I can use one or two on my station wagon rewiring project. Pretty sad when an old man can improve old Mopar factory wiring by at least a 1000% :D
Yes, I saw many different types of grounds connections, and ground straps, and the inserted picture is the ground strap I used.
I already replaced the thermostat housing with the stainless steel type many years ago, and if someone don't have one it can a real pain to remove.
I have read somewhere to drill an 1/8" hole on top of thermostat to help burp the system; is this true or just install?
Thanks
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Make sure you remove the other underhood grounds while you're there and clean them. If your battery ground cable and battery positive cable are original replace those as well. Caspers sell perfect replacements.
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You really don't need a hole in the thermostat on a buick
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You really don't need a hole in the thermostat on a buick
I forgot to ask since a while back there was a major discussion about using a 160 degree thermostat or the 180 degree thermostat. 160 keeps the engine cooler as where the 180 keeps the engine warmer as per factory spec.
I know this can open a can of worms (per say), but need to know.
What do you think?
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You really don't need a hole in the thermostat on a buick
I forgot to ask since a while back there was a major discussion about using a 160 degree thermostat or the 180 degree thermostat. 160 keeps the engine cooler as where the 180 keeps the engine warmer as per factory spec.
I know this can open a can of worms (per say), but need to know.
What do you think?
What is the question?
For a street car the 180 is the 1 to use. I think
And your assumption, is just that, about keeping the engine cooler.
That's just my opinion though.
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I agree 180
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I agree 180
I'm nowhere near of completion of valve springs replacement, but right now I want to get things in order when the spring is delivered.
Everything is already clean, and valve cover gasket is replaced, but the only thing I want to confirm is the intake valley gasket installation. (FEL-PRO MS 96033 Valley Pan Gasket Set)
the only place to apply RTV is where the corner end of the heads and block meets, and NO RTV around the water ports, and install the pan gasket dry.
Just to confirm my statement
Thanks
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people do it in numerous ways.
I don't recall what we did two or three years ago when William and I put a new set of heads on my GN. But I used to put a very thin smear of silicone around the water ports and once or twice, I put it very thin around the intake ports if I saw any pitting on the surfaces around the port. Also on the ends, of course.
I think the gaskets were made to go on dry, but new heads and intake should not have had any pitting, either. I think you will be fine no matter which way you go. Your choice.
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We used silicone around the water ports.
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people do it in numerous ways.
I don't recall what we did two or three years ago when William and I put a new set of heads on my GN. But I used to put a very thin smear of silicone around the water ports and once or twice, I put it very thin around the intake ports if I saw any pitting on the surfaces around the port. Also on the ends, of course.
I think the gaskets were made to go on dry, but new heads and intake should not have had any pitting, either. I think you will be fine no matter which way you go. Your choice.
Thank you Steve, I have been searching on how and if needed RTV around the water ports, but most video using individual intake gaskets.
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We used silicone around the water ports.
Hi Scoobum, Thanks for the info, as mention before I wasn't sure if it need it or not.
You definitely don't want to take the intake manifold out again cause of a leak.
I guess one would use high temp black RTV gasket maker, and if not which one?
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We used anything that was antifreeze and oil resistant. Just look on the package at your fav auto parts store.
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There's a torque sequence. Check Steves site.
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We used anything that was antifreeze and oil resistant. Just look on the package at your fav auto parts store.
Do you put the RTV on both side of the intake gasket or just one side only?
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We always put a smear on both sides. I never had any leaks. To my knowledge they went on dry when new. Up to you what you wanna do. I was afraid of a possible antifreeze leak into the engine.
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Quote from: Steve Wood on November 09 2021, 05:52:10 PM (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=6689.msg95721#msg95721)I would use new matching retainers and locks if I did it to make sure everything fit just right.
Steel Retainers:728-16 / 750-16
Tool Steel Retainers:1750-16WOW, I can't believe the price for both of these items
Is it possible to still use the existing retainers?
Which is cheaper. New locks and retainers, or dropping a valve.
I defiantly do greed with the new locks and retainers
Hi Steve,
I meant to ask you since I already installed all of the valve springs today, and I want to know since these heads are cast iron I don't need a valve spring seat, but if I did change to an Aluminum heads then I would need a valve spring seat or the valve springs would eat the Aluminum seat.
Is this statement true?
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I think most use a cup on aluminium in general these days. Don't have any Buick specific experience.
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I think most use a cup on aluminium in general these days. Don't have any Buick specific experience.
Thanks for the updated info
Using the rope method wasn't too bad to used, like everyone else claimed #6 was a challenge, but a few minutes longer then the other replacements.
Now I'm waiting for the white rocker arm buttons to come in for replacement
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Did the new springs feel a lot "stiffer" than the old springs?
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Did the new springs feel a lot "stiffer" than the old springs?
Definitely, and I'm glad you mention about getting new retainers.
I didn't even try to see if the original one fits or not, as I wanted everything to fit as a unit from comp cam's valve springs, comp cam retainers, and comp cam locks. When in doubt don't guess, just do it right.
A while back you did mention I might need to replace the intake manifold gasket, I did smoked the intake, but could not see the end of the intake at the firewall end. I'm glad I did removed the intake gasket since the rubber gasket on the edge of the block was very brittle and dried.
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that only would create a potential oil leak, not a vacuum leak. Unless you have a lot of blowby, there is not normally any pressure in the valley area (and that pressure has nothing to do directly with a loss of vacuum.
And once again :D, I will remind you that minor vacuum leaks are really not material unless it forces the blm correction outside the range of the ecm. Blms not being 128 is pretty much immaterial as long they are still with the ecm range. Modern chips with different fueling can also have an effect on this correction not to mention the lack of true closed loop correction at idle.
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that only would create a potential oil leak, not a vacuum leak. Unless you have a lot of blowby, there is not normally any pressure in the valley area (and that pressure has nothing to do directly with a loss of vacuum.
And once again :D, I will remind you that minor vacuum leaks are really not material unless it forces the blm correction outside the range of the ecm. Blms not being 128 is pretty much immaterial as long they are still with the ecm range. Modern chips with different fueling can also have an effect on this correction not to mention the lack of true closed loop correction at idle.
Before removing the intake I did both smoke test (Vacuum, and Exhaust) just an overall any type of leaks If any.
I'm using an GM 3" MAF, and the Scanmaster reading is as follows:
02-675
AF-05
LB-35
BAT-13.4
INT-124
BL-120
NPH-0
CLT-176
ATS-121
R-725
TP.42
IAC-25
CC-237-32
NAL-0
Fuel press is set at 45 w/vac.hose off (as per Bob Bailey Chip)
Once I put everything back together again, do a drive run and see the scanmaster numbers
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good thing you did not have that smoke tester when the car was new. You would have gone crazy
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Do you have an air compressor that you can dial down to 15psi?
If so, test your PCV valve to see if it blocks flow into engine. You might be surprised.
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good thing you did not have that smoke tester when the car was new. You would have gone crazy
Now that is funny, Thanks Steve
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Do you have an air compressor that you can dial down to 15psi?
If so, test your PCV valve to see if it blocks flow into engine. You might be surprised.
Thanks for the info, but I have been using the NOS GM/ACDelco PVC valve for many years with no issues
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RJC makes a nice PCV with a viton check valve. I run one.
I replaced the stock PCV before I did the rear main seal.
The stock one eventually allows blow by boost pressure into the crank case.
Without the check valve PCV, you get oil seeping out gaskets. Like for one mainly, the oil pan.
It shows up as a light covering of oil all over the oil pan and surrounding areas especially behind the pan.
So...
Its totally worth $27 + shipping.
(https://rjcracing.com/wp-content/themes/Productz/thumb.php?src=https://rjcracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/RJC-PCV.png&h=170&w=165&zc=1&q=80)
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I ran the RJC valve as well. My engines typically ran 118-122 for idle BLM's. Replacing the stock PCV valve with this raised the idle BLM's 8-10 points to right around 128. For some reason they acted like an air leak, at least on my engines.
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Strange how the limited volume of air that leaks out thru the pcv under boost could be so great that it overwhelms the breathers that many of us run on the valve covers. I guess my 66 turbo cannot put out enuf volume to cause a problem as I don't have leaks all over the place.
I did not realize the check valves were still a thing. I remember the blms being screwed up at low speed when using them, but I guess that does not happen anymore
Now a catch can.... Lol
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Guys are getting blowby cuz the piston to wall clearance has maxed out...and they're using a catch can as a band aid solution. When I had Joe to freshen up the stock engine, the piston to wall clearance was maxed. I rolled the dice and it lasted for years until the rings got some wear...and then it would push the dipstick up on each pass. If you watch my practice runs with the car you'll see smoke from the dipstick being burned off on the exhaust.
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Almost all engines will get blow by from combustion past the rings after a bit no matter how well the machine work was done. Compare leakdown numbers on a fresh,well done engine to the same engine after a few runs. 5-10 % leakdown at 100 psi ain't nothing compared to a 1000 or so pressure under boost when it's lit
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Hi Steve,
After the replacement of valve springs, already changed oil, do i have to prime the oil again, or assemble all and start engine.
Thanks
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I used some red valve train lubricant spray from Comp Cams.
Coated everything real good just in case.
Prolly not needed but it couldn't hurt.
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as far as I know, you have not done anything to lose oil pressure. I always just dribble oil over the springs and rockers for some pre-lube and start the engine.
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Fire the whore up!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I used some red valve train lubricant spray from Comp Cams.
Coated everything real good just in case.
Prolly not needed but it couldn't hurt.
That's easily what I did, by using Comp Cam's red valve train lubricant spray
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Fire the whore up!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's funny, but unfortunately I made a rookie mistake.
When I removed parts and bolts, I usually placed bolts on cardboard in the order it was removed, and well I know where the pats goes.
The rookie mistake is when removed the old Rocker Arm Retainers, I used brake cleaner on the rocker arm shaft, used shop towels, lightly oil the shaft and placed the rockers back onto the shaft. Not realizing the shaft goes on the heads one way, and when I tried to bolt down the rocker arm assembly one of the bolt was off center.
What really piss me off is now I have to order another 6 Rocker Arm Retainers to replaced the ones I removed to correct the shaft position.
The first sets I ordered from RockAuto, and when I when to reordered a box of 4, RockAuto has an out of stock item.
I did found out AutoZone has the ones I'm replacing with, and I'll pick them up this coming Thursday.
Melling MRM-1724 (color Black) Photo shows the rocker arms shaft assembly is missing 3 retainers. I already reversed the rockers 180 degree from the shaft position.
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https://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/rocker_shaft_assembly.htm
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https://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/rocker_shaft_assembly.htm
I did read this before I did the replacement, and it's funny when I first removed the old retainers in place , slide off the rockers in order, clean shaft and then placed the rockers back in the same order, and none of them have no Land R stamped on them. As you can see in the photo there is no L/R stamped on rockers.
Keep in mind this is an unopen engine; I know since I got it 32 years ago, and the first year a father gave his son my GN for graduated HS. 2nd year father took it away for missing College classes, kid protested and father fine now it's sold to me.
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Hi Steve,
While I'm waiting for the rest of the retainers to come in, is it wise or not to put blue threaded lock on the rocker arm shaft bolt and torque to 25 ft-lb
Thanks
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I don't. torqued to 25 ft lbs, they should not come loose.
I think it is wise to try to torque them down evenly (going up and down the shaft several times. If I remember, putting the engine on TDC will have most of the passenger side valve close to being closed and that will allow minimum work against the springs when torquing the shafts down. Then turning the engine about a 1/4 turn will get a number of the driver's side valve close to being closed to minimize spring loads against the shafts...
I have heard of shafts cracking or breaking when someone tried to tighten one bolt on the way down at once rather than going back and forth.
I don't know if anyone makes studs to replace the factory shaft bolts, but those would be nice, imo.
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I don't. torqued to 25 ft lbs, they should not come loose.
I think it is wise to try to torque them down evenly (going up and down the shaft several times. If I remember, putting the engine on TDC will have most of the passenger side valve close to being closed and that will allow minimum work against the springs when torquing the shafts down. Then turning the engine about a 1/4 turn will get a number of the driver's side valve close to being closed to minimize spring loads against the shafts...
I have heard of shafts cracking or breaking when someone tried to tighten one bolt on the way down at once rather than going back and forth.
I don't know if anyone makes studs to replace the factory shaft bolts, but those would be nice, imo.
Thanks for the great info of setting the engine to TDC for the passenger side, as I already bolted down the driver side.
I 1st tighten bolts by hand, then used 7/16" socket and tighten each bolt sequential .
I will turn the engine about a 1/4 turn for the driver's side valve to close, and check again the 25 ft-lbs torqued
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you want to tighten each one just a little and go to the next one..work up and down the shaft until all have reached 25
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you want to tighten each one just a little and go to the next one..work up and down the shaft until all have reached 25
Yes that is what I did on the driver side, as I'm waiting fir the passenger side retainers to come this coming Thursday.
Thanks again Steve for the great info
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as far as I know, you have not done anything to lose oil pressure. I always just dribble oil over the springs and rockers for some pre-lube and start the engine.
Hi Steve,
I finally got the part, assembly all, and today I started the engine
At 1st I was concern about the intake gasket as I did put very little of Permatex ultra black gasket maker rtv silicone around the water and intake ports, on both sides of the intake gasket. Once the engine started for a few seconds I did checked the oil dip stick just to make sure there was no water mix with the oil. There was a lot of ticking noise coming from the valve springs, and I did put comps cam spray lubricate on everything except on the lifters. I did put regular oil on the lifters as I lifted them up rotate them a bit just to make sure none of them was stuck or hanging up.
I guess it took awhile for the oil to lube through push rods and after a few seconds the ticking noise got quieter.
According to Comps Cam, run the engine between 1500-2000rpm until the engine is running at normal temperature.
I ran it for about 15 minutes, shut down and let it cool down, and after 1/2 hrs I started the engine again and I can tell you the engine runs and sounds good.
Here are the Scanmaster readings:
O2-519
AF-04
LB-31
BAT-13.5
INT-128
BL-130
NPH-0
CLT-173
ATS-80
R-825
TPS-.40
IAC-14
CC-66-250
NAL-0
Oil Pres-28
Vac-18.5 (steady)
A/F-13.1-14.0
Thank You Steve for all your help and advises, especially to replace the intake manifold gasket; previous VAC was at 15.0-15.5, and the previous A/F was 15.4-15.7
Thanks Again Steve
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