IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => A/C, Heating and Cooling => Topic started by: SuperSix on July 07 2013, 02:26:41 PM
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The thread gnonyx posted here: http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=3983 (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=3983) (I will cross post most of this on TBS.com) got me thinking about this conversion, I decided to try it on the 87T. I had rebuilt the A/C 4-5 years ago, but it stopped blowing cold, I still had R12 in the system.
It hadn't worked in ~3 years, but still had a bit of pressure. That's a good sign.
I purchased:
ACDelco 15-50120 Orifice Assembly
ACDelco 15-1681 Accumulator Dryer (This is the correct TR part #, despite what Amazon and RockAuto say)
Four Seasons 26777 Cap & Valve Air Conditioning System Seal Kit
This includes new valve cores for the system, and some spare caps. After much Googling and reading, a large amount of A/C leaks are from these. From the looks of the old ones, they may have been factory. All were replaced.
New Orings (I already have a shit ton of them)
8oz PAG150 oil
1/2 gallon A/C flush
4 cans 10oz office duster, Big Lots, $4 ea (only used 3) (They had R134 there for $6.75/can - with R134 being phased out, I am considering a bit of a stockpile)
New compressor seals - Got the wrong ones, another error from Amazon and Rock. Turned out to be simple orings I already had.
I went all out I guess. I pulled the evaporator out (That's another issue I read about - old evaps that get corroded/clogged, etc, especially pre-cabin air filter cars) and soaked it in a bath of home A/C coil cleaner. I gently brushed it, and cleaned it, used plenty of water. It didn't look TOO bad to begin with, but I swear I can feel more air volume in the cabin.
I did snap the evap cover when I was trying to remove it, this is the first time I have taken one apart. instead of Googling how to remove it, I went all cowboy on it. nothing a little silicone won't fix, and hey - it's gonna be my son's car soon. :p
I was not impressed with the amount of debris behind the wide trim strip and other parts I removed - spent a little while cleaning that up. I scavenged and reformed the black sealing goo and reinstalled it. I think I only stripped two screws - that's a win for me.
I pulled everything out, flushed it all (Except compressor) I pulled the compressor out and drained what oil out of it I could. I put a bit of the new oil in and rotated it a few times (Thanks Charlie!). I think this is the factory compressor, and has never been out of the car. I'm not sure. Either way, it's working. I ended up getting flush all over the left side of the engine - gave me a reason to clean up the motor a bit.
I installed all new orings, new orifice tube (old one pictured below), new accumulator and all new valve cores. Reinstalled it all, then realized I had forgotten to add oil. It was really late, I was beat - but I had to get the system buttoned up so I could put it on vacuum. As fast as I could, I put 2oz in the condenser, and the remaining ~4-5oz in the accumulator.
I put it on a vacuum for ~2 hours while I cleaned up, etc. I then left it for the night.
The next morning, I went and checked, no leaks. For giggles I turned the vacuum pump back on, it may have run for ~2 more hours.
I had a hard time figuring out the correct charge for this freon, I couldn't find a reference to that anywhere.
So, here's what I came up with, am I right?
Factory Charge: 3.25 lbs R12
HC152A molecular weight - 120g/mol
R12 molecular weight - 68g/mol
Corrected - thanks gnonyx!
HC152A molecular weight - 68g/mol
R12 molecular weight - 120g/mol
68/120 = .56
3.25lb * 16oz - 52oz factory R12 fill, or 29.12oz of HC152A/R152 (52oz * .56)
I was using 10oz cans, so - three cans should be a fill? Assuming ~1-2oz loss overall while adding freon.
When I took it for a ride yesterday with ~22.5oz - the center outlet temp got down to 51f. Ambient was ~80f, humidity was ~60%.
Idle, it will get down to ~55f. After reviewing my math above a bit more, I added ~5 more oz this morning.
Also - before I added anything this morning, the resting PSI is 85.5, and yesterday, I couldn't nook up my high side port, an oring popped loose in the connector. Then I realized this morning I could just remove the R134 fitting, and use my R12 high side hose.
Here's better the running pressures from this morning, AFTER adding a total of ~26.5oz (Estimate)
Low side - 37PSI
High Side 190PSI
Center outlet temp was 54, this is at idle.
I await the lambasting for something incredibly simple that I fucked up. :rofl:
Some interesting links:
http://www.rx7club.com/1st-gen-archive-71/c-charging-easy-cheap-safe-alternative-refrigerant-997918/page4/ (http://www.rx7club.com/1st-gen-archive-71/c-charging-easy-cheap-safe-alternative-refrigerant-997918/page4/)
http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f135/how-to-r152a-conversion-493953/ (http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f135/how-to-r152a-conversion-493953/)
http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2008/manhoekim.pdf (http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2008/manhoekim.pdf)
Pics!
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Misc%20Car%20Pics/P1000249.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Misc%20Car%20Pics/P1000250.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Misc%20Car%20Pics/P1000251.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Misc%20Car%20Pics/P1000252.jpg)
Old orifice tube. Doesn't look too bad to me - experts?
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Misc%20Car%20Pics/P1000253.jpg)
Suckin!
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Misc%20Car%20Pics/P1000256.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Misc%20Car%20Pics/P1000257.jpg)
The bad part is I found out the driver's side upper control arm bushings are completely shot - it explains the random clunking. I think I will wait for the son to come home on leave - he needs to learn how to rebuild a TR front end. :p
Kinda hard to see in this pic, but they are the worst I have seen. Oddly, the passenger side bushings look tired, but they aren't disintegrated like the driver's side.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/Misc%20Car%20Pics/P1000260.jpg)
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rather than snapping things http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/heater_core_replacement.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/heater_core_replacement.htm)
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Hope the patent does not run out on 152 soon! :D
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oh, yeah! Nice Job!!
And the upper arms are a piece of cake if you have a control arm puller set off ebay or the rental place
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Hope the patent does not run out on 152 soon! :D
lol - that's what I have been thinking throughout this whole process. Fucking DuPont rules the Freon world.
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Hi SuperSix,
Excellent write up and the work you did
I do have a question for you, you claimed:
HC152A molecular weight - 120g/mol
R12 molecular weight - 68g/mol
and after reading the link articlesyou posted and some researched I found:
http://www.wuzhouchem.com/cataloged/ODS/hfc-152a.htm (http://www.wuzhouchem.com/cataloged/ODS/hfc-152a.htm)
The molecular weight of R12 is 120.9
The molecular weight of HC152A is 66.1
Is there something I'm missing or is it possible both molecular weights numbers are reverse?
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Hi SuperSix,
Excellent write up and the work you did
I do have a question for you, you claimed:
HC152A molecular weight - 120g/mol
R12 molecular weight - 68g/mol
and after reading the link articlesyou posted and some researched I found:
http://www.wuzhouchem.com/cataloged/ODS/hfc-152a.htm (http://www.wuzhouchem.com/cataloged/ODS/hfc-152a.htm)
The molecular weight of R12 is 120.9
The molecular weight of HC152A is 66.1
Is there something I'm missing or is it possible both molecular weights numbers are reverse?
I typed it wrong, you are right.
I am pretty sure I did the calculations correctly, and just typed it wrong, I do need to check though. :D
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reading... flammable gas? maybe has less of an upside over 12A ( other than you guys don't have it approved )
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what does flammable gas mean? It burns without the presence of O2, or does it require a certain A/F to be ignited?
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Here's the MSDS:
http://www.airgas.com/documents/pdf/001090.pdf (http://www.airgas.com/documents/pdf/001090.pdf)
134A
http://msds.dupont.com/msds/pdfs/EN/PEN_09004a2f806a3060.pdf (http://msds.dupont.com/msds/pdfs/EN/PEN_09004a2f806a3060.pdf)
12a:
http://www.duracool.com/msds/Duracool_12a_MATERIAL_SAFETY_DATA_SHEET_Cyl.pdf (http://www.duracool.com/msds/Duracool_12a_MATERIAL_SAFETY_DATA_SHEET_Cyl.pdf)
they don't make it easy to compare
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European refrigerants are normally flammable, but, small leaks produce such a lean a/f that they will not burn. I am pretty sure that is the case for this as well
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In the video linked on tb.com - he sprays it right on a MAP gas torch. I don't think it's any more flammable than anything else. There's still people using propane.
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Dammit Charlie! Get in here and show me what I did wrong! :)
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http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2008-06-12/pdf/E8-13086.pdf (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2008-06-12/pdf/E8-13086.pdf)
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: This final
action provides motor vehicle
manufacturers and their suppliers an
additional refrigerant option for motor
vehicle air conditioning systems. The
refrigerant substitute discussed in this
action (i.e., R–152a) is non ozonedepleting .
Members of the MVAC
manufacturing and MVAC service
industries have all been actively
engaged in the development of this
rulemaking and are developing
prototype systems with the use
conditions defined in this rulemaking.
This final action helps harmonize
U.S. MVAC alternatives with European
Union (EU) MVAC alternatives. The EU
has banned the use of R–134a, the
predominant MVAC refrigerant in the
U.S and the EU, in new cars beginning
in 2011. By 2020, cars sold in the EU
may have to include the new alternative
in this action. In response, U.S. original
equipment manufacturers are
developing MVAC systems using R–
152a and other alternative refrigerants
for the European market and for
possible U.S. sale as well.
EPA is deferring final rulemaking on
R–744 (carbon dioxide). EPA is
currently continuing to consider further
several issues with this
regulatory action.
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Whoooo!!
I wonder how long before they add a destructive chemical to the duster cans to keep people from using it in their A/C. :rolleyes;
More info from SAE/Delphi;
http://am.delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/1999-01-0874.PDF (http://am.delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/1999-01-0874.PDF)
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Not sure what you want to hear Mark. If it's working then I really don't see an issue. :068:
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Not sure what you want to hear Mark. If it's working then I really don't see an issue. :068:
Just wondering of you saw a glaring error or three.
Seems my math is right - Wife and I took it to DQ tonight for some ice cream, A/C was cold, had to turn the blower down a bit. :)
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Nope, sounds like you did everything right Mark. It's not that hot yet so when it really gets hot report back and see how it's working. :player:
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Keep an eye on Big Lots if there's one in your area.
They had a 20% off day a week or so ago, valid on your entire purchase.
They had 12oz cans of R134A for $8 ea, so $6.40 ea with the coupon. They only had 15 cans left, i got them all. I plan t start collecting cans of R134A since they are banning it in the near future (Or so I hear?)
They also had the HC152A office duster - 3x 10oz cans (1 TR system refill) for $10, or $8 after the coupon. I only grabbed two 3-packs, I should have gotten more.
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Another succesful HC152A conversion - the wife's '96 Integra.
Last year, I replaced most of the A/C. Ever since then the performance has been OK, not great, and the hotter it gets, the worse it seems to be. So, while she doesn't ask for much, she asked I check it out. There has also, since my rebuild, another issue that drives her crazy - a whistle from the evaporator, or possibly the expansion valve. The expansion valve is one thing I should have replaced, but didn't.
I thought that the whistle may be the expansion valve.. I think I saw a reference or two online to that.
I bought a new valve, and planned on putting it in today. I decided the recover the system, vacuum it down, and refill it with HC152A. Then see, once other variables were eliminated (freon level, water/air in system, etc) if it still whistled, possibly saving the bullshit task of removing the evap under the dash, and replacing the exp valve. I also changed the high side Shcrader valve, I only had one replacement though. Pulled and lubricated the low side one for good measure.
I used a hillbilly tactic to measure the oil that came out when I "recovered" the R134A that was in the system. I caught it in a clean catch jar - and used a digital scale to see how much oil I needed to add back in. After realizing I didn't HAVE anymore PAG100 (Or any PAG, for that matter), I poured back in what I caught in above mentioned catch jar.
Pulled a vacuum on it for ~2 hours, The R134A/HC152A ratio is .64. Factory fill is ~23oz, 23 * .64 = 14.72oz HC152A.
I put in one 10oz can, and the center outlet was down to 48f, ~85 ambient, ~50% humidity. All at idle.
I stopped there, 48f is pretty damn good - not sure I wanna fuck with it.
So - it cost me $2.67 to refill the A/C. ($8/3pk 10oz cans)
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Whoa..
HC152A (Office dusters "canned air") is:
- Better for the environment, doesn't deplete or damage the ozone layer.
- Lighter molecular weight means less is needed (.64 ratio) Average Honda R134A charge - ~23oz, equivalent HC152A charge - ~15.4oz
- Much cheaper (HC152A ~$4/can, R134A - ~$13/can, non sale prices)
- Completely compatible with existing R134A (and properly converted R12) lubricants and systems
- Performance exceeds R134A in many scenarios in most systems
- Rumor has it that R134A is getting phased out in the next 1-2 years, I assume the cost of R134A will jump
So why aren't the auto manufacturers using it?
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/SNAP_MVAC_Factsheetfinal.html (http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/SNAP_MVAC_Factsheetfinal.html)
FACT SHEET: Substitute Listing in the Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning Sector
Action
EPA is listing R-152a as an acceptable alternative with use conditions for motor vehicle air conditioning systems.
This final rule allows the use of a new alternative to ozone depleting substances in the motor vehicle air conditioning sector and outline the conditions necessary for its safe use. The substitute is a non ozone-depleting gas and consequently does not contribute to stratospheric ozone depletion.
This new alternative, when used with proper risk mitigation technologies, would reduce the impact of mobile air conditioners on the environment.
Background
Under the Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP) program (Section 612 of the Clean Air Act), EPA reviews alternatives to Class I and Class II ozone depleting substances (ODS) and approves use of alternatives which reduce the overall risk to public health and the environment.
Since 1994, the SNAP program has reviewed approximately 400 alternatives across the industrial, consumer, and military sectors.
The European Union has proposed and is expected to ban the use of HFC-134a and other fluorinated gases in a variety of applications. By the end of the decade, car manufacturers in the European market may have to move to this new alternative. In response, U.S. car manufacturers are developing systems using this new alternative refrigerant as well.
If auto manufacturers chose to adopt this technology, they would be required to install safety devices to mitigate risks of fire or over-exposure to the refrigerant in the event of an accidental release during servicing or vehicle operation.
[/list][/list]
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DO we believe all the duster brands use the same propellant?
Checked 3 so far - funny how the brand and "msds" pops up in the google popular searches
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DO we believe all the duster brands use the same propellant?
Checked 3 so far - funny how the brand and "msds" pops up in the google popular searches
I believe they do, but the don't all state "HCF152A" on the label - but the have to list an MSDS code somewhere. I look for the note that the added a "bittering agent" to limit inhalation abuse - that tells me it's freon.
Of course, I stand there and study the can for five minutes anyway. :P
Of course, I can't be held responsible if there is a non-HC152A duster brand out there, buyer beware.
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(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/The%20T/AirConditioner%20Overhaul/IMAG4172.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/The%20T/AirConditioner%20Overhaul/IMAG4172.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/The%20T/AirConditioner%20Overhaul/IMAG4174.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/The%20T/AirConditioner%20Overhaul/IMAG4174.jpg.html)
Got me a three pak,(actually the daughter picked it up for me). Now to save up for the rest of the stuff, like gauges, vac pump, and probably most of the parts. The a/c hasnt worked on my T for many(read 2 decades) years so I'm sure I'm down for most of the components. Now that I've matured(got old) the wife has deemed a/c as a necessity.
Mine were of the 10 oz variety and went for $10. I will be on the lookout for the 20% sale mentioned above so I can pick up enough to do the rest of my vehicles. EEFF dupont and their 134a.
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That's the same one I grabbed with the coupon.
I feel the same way, the older I get, the less I see something like A/C as a "luxury". And I am sure my wife appreciates it too. :)
The gauges and vac pump are all from Harbor Freight- keep an eye out for coupons. There's always 20% ones out there, I have seen a few new 25% coupons. Get it while on sale, not with a coupon, you can't combine.
One thing I don't like about the gauges is the port connectors. The high side one burped an o-ring, and I couldn't get it apart to fix it without breaking it. I bought a pair of these - MUCH easier to attach and remove. They don't have valves in them, but I don't care about that.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000M5WT8Y (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000M5WT8Y)
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as I am lazy and don't want to read-how do you get it out of the spray can and into a hose?
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as I am lazy and don't want to read-how do you get it out of the spray can and into a hose?
Modified side-tap tool.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/2013-07-11223020.jpg)
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I forgot all about those side tap tools...rememb er something almost every day while I forget at least ten things!
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If you use a side tap use a knife or something to scrape the pain off the side where you want to puncture it. The spike is hollow and can catch some of the paint when it goes through the side. It may not cause a problem but I'd rather not have the extra trash in the system. :chin:
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Aren't these the right size?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61khCWgt-wL._SL1261_.jpg)
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Possibly, I don't have one. Buy one and send it to me.
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I have one, Sent me a can and I will test it for you.
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Just looked at Techspray Duster- it is 1,1,1,2 Tetrafluoroeth ane aka 134A!
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So, I'm reading the links and have a couple questions.
the guy at the s10 link has ester oil in his list of stuff to get. Is this the same as the pag150?
Does the pag150 with uv already in it have any drawbacks?
http://www.amazon.com/TSI-Supercool-PAG-With-P150-8D/dp/B008PKW97Y/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1383488239&sr=8-10&keywords=PAG150 (http://www.amazon.com/TSI-Supercool-PAG-With-P150-8D/dp/B008PKW97Y/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1383488239&sr=8-10&keywords=PAG150)
Is a wrecking yard compressor a better idea than a remanned unit? I have heard nothing but bad about re-manufactured compressors and how half or more go bad in a short time.
Thanks.
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I would buy a new compressor instead of a rebuilt.
From what little reading I have done, pag will work as long as there is no mineral oil in the system. I don't think they used mineral oil since some time in the '90s. Not sure what new compressors come with but I think ester and pag are compatible but I would double check that with some googling
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Most systems use PAG because it doesn't wear out like Ester can. Most compressors are dry even though they use a very small amount of oil to assemble them.
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I used PAG150, IIRC
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I got the side can tap and the vac pump and gauge setup. Haven't opened them up yet as we have volleyball this am. I have to pick up some more duster cans as the kids took and used the ones I had. I think I can use this duster with the mineral oil. And I can mix the pag150 with the mineral oil in the system. Am I wrong? Steve sez I am above.
What can I do short of pulling it all apart?
I am on a budget and would like to get it up and running but will hold off and get the drier and orifice if we think it is necessary. I want to do it right but with my economically challenged state I am doing it on the cheap. The system is stock. Really. I bought it new and nothing but running the A/c until it didn't blow cold any more. I just left it be as I didn't have the knowledge or tools to do anything.
Thanks for the input. I can start another thread but thought this one being added to was better to keep it together.
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I'm told you want to change the orifice if for no other reason than that's where
trash from dead compressors etc will accumulate
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I'm not sure it has a dead compressor and was going to pull a vacuum on it and try to fill it with the duster stuff. While in the meantime saving up for the orifice tube and drier. Jason hooked me up with a compressor so if the initial deal doesn't work for long I can swap the compressor and hhe other new stuff on and clean it real good then. Poor plan?