IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense

Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Steve Wood on November 02 2019, 08:56:35 PM

Title: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 02 2019, 08:56:35 PM
Looks like it got rained out at BG, but Russ gave Julio his build.  Note this is a full weight car and not a stripped down pro-mod car.  Also note that it leaves at 2 psi of boost off the foot brake and there is no magic ignition, two step and all the stuff people think they have to buy to go fast.  Just a damn good tuner/mechanic and a driver!  Oh, yeah, it runs a PowerPlate so all those guys that eyeball it and say it cannot work need to get their eyes recalibrated!


this is a FB link to Julio's facebook page for those of you that do FB...My opinion is this what Going FAST with CLASS is all about.  No whining, no cheating, no pushing the rules...just basic TurboBuick!


https://www.facebook.com/Alkycontrol/posts/1358312337706822?__tn__=K-R (https://www.facebook.com/Alkycontrol/posts/1358312337706822?__tn__=K-R)
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: 1 RARE T on November 03 2019, 07:57:25 AM
So, they get the turbo working early with alky so the short times are crazy. The key is lots of boost coupled with lots of alky makes power.

I can't remember from the old days when EGT's were the "latest" secret to going fast but are his numbers on the fat side?

My car always loved more fuel.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 03 2019, 09:24:20 AM
I suspect that the converter has a lot to do with the quick spool but it's hard to envision how well it is hooking and going.  Looks to be slingshot quick to me.  There cannot be any wasted timing spooling up to full boost.

Alky per volume has about half the heat content so I guess they are getting it back by spraying so much.  Perhaps there is a lot of timing to go with it?

If I recall, years ago when Dave Bamford came out and ran so fast, he was running mid 1600's and perhaps a bit higher on EGT's.  I recall thinking 1650 was a good target on alky but I never had more than one probe located under the turbo.

I think Russ is constantly trying things and Dan has told us that they race the car all the time.  Russ told Julio that the car has made about 350 passes in the last couple of years.  I think most of that was heads up racing against any car that pulled to the line in the next lane.  Melissa can flat out drive the car and Russ does all the tuning.  I don't think they pay any attention to what ever everyone else is doing either from a parts combo or from the tuner of the moment perspective.  They do whatever it is that they found to work during those 350 passes in a car that is completely streetable if you don't mind crawling thru the roll bar to get in.

From what Dan has said, it looks like the alky class is going away.  Everyone else does not want to race because they break too many things and the cars don't survive a full week end of racing.  It's too bad because I enjoy watching cars in the nine-ten second classes a lot more that I can relate to than I do the rockets that run 7 seconds with the panels flapping in the wind altho I appreciate them.  I just like drivers.

Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: nocooler on November 03 2019, 11:27:30 AM
I thought the egt data was to show how even the distribution is with all the alky being sprayed.
They have the combo figured out for sure!
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 03 2019, 01:18:28 PM
I think those egt's came as a result of someone betting him it would run better without the PP...it did not, but these are the egts recorded with the PP>

I'm thinking they are probably slightly fatter (cooler) than I would have guessed which 1 Rare T was asking
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 03 2019, 03:27:48 PM
Guys.. Russ's tunes are a little fat.. We don't run the car on the edge. UNLESS she is in the finals then everything is fair game. Her car just came to my house for the winter. Russ is already planning new things to try.
   ...It was funny watching guys taking pics. We were in the TSM/TSO tents. Guys would glance at the car an keep walking. :icon_lol:    ..have to figure out how to post videos later.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 03 2019, 05:38:08 PM
That is a killer time! :cheers:   What turbo is she running?
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 03 2019, 06:22:39 PM
Precision 7270 turbo
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: nocooler on November 03 2019, 06:30:43 PM
Dan - upload the video to youtube and then share the link.
If it's on a phone and you can send it via text - send me a pm and I'll give you my # and share it for you.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 08:17:14 AM
first run in TSO. Qualified 5th in both TSM/TSO.
https://youtu.be/CSzM5JBdby0 (https://youtu.be/CSzM5JBdby0)
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: nocooler on November 04 2019, 09:39:38 AM
Awesome!
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 04 2019, 10:20:27 AM
Sounds good and spools up fast!
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 04 2019, 10:24:30 AM
Talk about a no drama launch!  That has to help that drivetrain stay together...har d to believe it spools that fast.  Between Russ and Melissa, not many are going to have a chance and I doubt there are many that can design a combination that works like that.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: 1 RARE T on November 04 2019, 11:39:08 AM
He claims it leaves on 2 psi of boost yet you can see it's making power trying to light the last beam.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: nocooler on November 04 2019, 11:42:53 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HWBspa9hc0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HWBspa9hc0) - Dan does it have travel limiters on the front?
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 12:27:49 PM
Quote from: 1 RARE T
He claims it leaves on 2 psi of boost yet you can see it's making power trying to light the last beam.

why would he lie about it ?? Obliviously you don't know Russ. Tells it like it is and lets the car do the talking. Hell someone could copy her combo an do nothing with it. Like her old 9.9 runs back in 2007. I am not a fast tuner but I do look at the runs everytime she comes back from making a pass. It is what he said. OH... she brings it to 2#s before she stages. Turbo is building a lot of heat. Then bumps her way in. Launches going forward NOT a kool guy wheelie. ;) She is only foot braking NO trans brake.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 12:35:52 PM
Quote from: nocooler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HWBspa9hc0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HWBspa9hc0) - Dan does it have travel limiters on the front?

No.. all playing with the suspension .. I bet he picked away at it for 2 or 3 months in 90*+ weather. Having power is one thing but getting it down is something else. I would have set the car on fire at that time. Watching it was a nightmare. Did the kool guy wheelies to.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 04 2019, 01:21:02 PM
Looks like she bumps the car to build some heat.  Pretty good trick to not jump out of the lights...then she gets into it when the lights start to move...pretty damn good trick to not move out of the box until it goes green on the tree.

It's easy to see that the boost is low because the car is not twisting and curling up just before or after the light goes green.  Of course some of that is probably due to the TRZ stuff and months of tweaking?

It goes against everything I thought I knew because we spend a lot of time trying to keep the spray from coming on too early and killing the spool by being too rich and therefore "too cool".  He's starting with three nozzles spraying!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 03:34:04 PM
Quote from: Steve Wood
Looks like she bumps the car to build some heat.  Pretty good trick to not jump out of the lights...then she gets into it when the lights start to move...pretty damn good trick to not move out of the box until it goes green on the tree.

Thats why she races with really fast cars. Have to be on your game. Hell out of 16 cars up here she is prob 14th. Oh... thinking here... the sound you hear with her bumping in the light is not her. It's the other guy. Her car is quiet. She runs threw the exhaust.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 04 2019, 03:57:52 PM
I wondered if I was hearing her car or the other one...LOL
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: 1 RARE T on November 04 2019, 04:06:27 PM
What I'm saying is that it doesn't appear the car leaves and gets a 1.29 60' on 2 psi.

No-one claimed he's lying, Jesus. 
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 04 2019, 04:28:29 PM
There is a big difference from leaving at 2 or 3 and what it is actually hitting a few feet off the line.  I suspect it is at full boost long before it hits 60'
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 04 2019, 04:29:32 PM
I saw someone else post that since he started pouring the alky to it, he was hitting full boost 700 rpm lower than before.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: 1 RARE T on November 04 2019, 04:38:19 PM
Interesting considering the fear forever that spraying too much alky too early would "drown" the engine.

Is it safe to say that he's running nearly entirely on alky and not gasoline for the 60'? Seems logical. I'd bet the tune is no fuel till 60' out.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 04 2019, 04:49:56 PM
I'm not sure it is safe to say anything LOL, but, I would not be surprised to find he is running a lot of timing at launch and mostly alky as you suggest.  Given he is running XFI, he has lots of leeway in how he sets it up.

A few years ago, one of my friends was running mid tens and complaining that he had to turn the alky way up to get a fast pass.  Turned out his fuel pump was virtually dead and he was running on alky most of the run.  No signs of detonation at all....
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: 1 RARE T on November 04 2019, 04:53:47 PM
This is fascinating. :045:
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 06:52:49 PM
Quote from: 1 RARE T
What I'm saying is that it doesn't appear the car leaves and gets a 1.29 60' on 2 psi.

No-one claimed he's lying, Jesus. 

That was her first 1.29 short time.. Normally 1.30/1.33. . Still picking away with the tune. Who knows what would have happened if it didn't rain :010: XFI tuning is endless.. Chip had done it's job for years.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 06:56:54 PM
Quote from: 1 RARE T
Interesting considering the fear forever that spraying too much alky too early would "drown" the engine.

Yes it will....

Is it safe to say that he's running nearly entirely on alky and not gasoline for the 60'? Seems logical. I'd bet the tune is no fuel till 60' out.

No she isn't :)
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 07:03:05 PM
Quote from: 1 RARE T
This is fascinating. (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/Smileys/default/045.gif)


It is.. Russ picks a little bit at a time. The car does boggle my mind. I never thought it would go like this. Hell I am impressed with a mid/high 9 with a 109 block. The car doesn't look like it belongs in those classes.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 04 2019, 07:55:46 PM
Quote from: 1 RARE T
Interesting considering the fear forever that spraying too much alky too early would "drown" the engine.

Is it safe to say that he's running nearly entirely on alky and not gasoline for the 60'? Seems logical. I'd bet the tune is no fuel till 60' out.
   It is fascinating and it's not doing it the "conventional" way.  that is what makes it even more interesting to me.

We have no difficulty in accepting those that run E85 but when someone sprays a lot of alcohol and apparently not so much gasoline, it boggles the mind.  Mine at least :D

I still remember the '60's (probably better than ten years ago) when alcohol cars were popular.  I remember that detonation was not a problem, but, pre-ignition was if we got too far into the advance.  The biggest problem with alcohol was having to flush the heck out of the fuel system to prevent corrosion.  I'm prone to the lazy side and I remember hating alcohol cars for that reason.


From 2003, here are Bamford's EGTs with a PP and a PTE plenum.

cyl#    PTE 70 mm   PTE+PP  EGT's PTE  EGT's PTE+PP 
   1           -56%         -3%     1702            1660  
   3           +36%         -3%     1688            1640
   5           +27%         +2%     1759            1647
   2           -59%         +2%     1736            1704
   4           -2%           +2%     1744            1707
   6           +36%         -2%     1802            1682

For some perverse reason, it always makes me happy to see tests prove the experts wrong  :D  I believe the flow numbers above came from RJC's flow tests.  It looks like Russ is having the same kind of results.

Dan, I see the cam that Russ listed is not extremely wild.  Do you have any idea to a ball park rpm that Melissa is launching at.  I am assuming it is critical to get that size of turbo to start spooling is as much rpm as heat?
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: ss/gn on November 04 2019, 08:42:00 PM
Russ could tune a wheel barrow and Melissa could drive a dump truck into the 9s. Don't give them any ideas!  More tricks in that car than Hudini could think of BUT not many would ever notice. No pro mod there, just a well thought out combination. Probably would have went a few rounds in TSM and they weren't even prepared. Great weekend either way. Hey Dan are ya ready for next year??? Maybe a Mazda in TAI:045:
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 09:39:15 PM
Quote from: Steve Wood

Dan, I see the cam that Russ listed is not extremely wild.  Do you have any idea to a ball park rpm that Melissa is launching at.  I am assuming it is critical to get that size of turbo to start spooling is as much rpm as heat?

Russ's way....comes out with boost. Dan's ...running 11s years ago it was rpm with a stock motor.  Yes he wants the heat.. has a blanket on the turbo.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 09:44:26 PM
Quote from: ss/gn
 Hey Dan are ya ready for next year??? Maybe a Mazda in TAI:045:

I'd like to. I should know shortly. Every time I go down there I wish I had the car. Just put all the cars away yesterday.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 04 2019, 09:51:39 PM
Another video.. 3:40 in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSyZeNhrhSI
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Top Speed on November 05 2019, 10:19:00 AM
That's awesome!!!
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: 1 RARE T on November 05 2019, 11:56:31 AM
Is there under hood pics somewhere so we can pretend to figure out what makes this magic?

I'm intrigued but understand if that's not something he'll let out.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 05 2019, 12:18:47 PM
On the FB link, in the comments, he says where the alky nozzles are located....
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 05 2019, 12:19:49 PM
I think there are in Julios article..  Ill look later an see if I have any here.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 05 2019, 12:25:17 PM
[quote="1 RARE T"I'm intrigued but understand if that's not something he'll let out.

Really doesn't look like much really. Especially with a stock location intercooler. .People were looking it over pretty good in BG. If someone asked about anything he would be proud to tell em what he is trying to do.
I'm intrigued but understand if that's not something he'll let out.

Really doesn't look like much really. Especially with a stock location intercooler. .People were looking it over pretty good in BG. If someone asked about anything he would be proud to tell em what he is trying to do. [/quote]
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 05 2019, 12:51:37 PM
I love the stealth factory look!  Way too cool! :cheers:
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: 1 RARE T on November 05 2019, 02:06:24 PM
I have a little better understanding of what approach he's got figured out. 

Gotta wonder how much alky it uses in a typical pass. :mwha:
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 05 2019, 02:59:09 PM
Just tune for E 75
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 05 2019, 03:05:59 PM
[quote="1 RARE T"Gotta wonder how much alky it uses in a typical pass. (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/Smileys/default/mwha.gif)

Thats my only job now. I top it off after a run. Have a gal jug.  I don't think it's that much. Car has 3 nozzles 15/10/5.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 05 2019, 04:05:13 PM
Dan, is the alky pump the standard pump or has the pressure been increased even more over the one that comes with the kit?
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 05 2019, 05:16:16 PM
Quote from: Steve Wood
Dan, is the alky pump the standard pump or has the pressure been increased even more over the one that comes with the kit?
Standard pump. We have Julio's tester. Replace every other year normally. BUT we do have a spare if we can see the pump screwing up.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 05 2019, 05:27:03 PM
Glad you mentioned the tester...I just ordered one LOL

Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 05 2019, 10:06:38 PM
Standard pump. We have Julio's tester. Replace every other year normally. BUT we do have a spare if we can see the pump screwing up.
Do you guys rebuild the pumps?
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 06 2019, 05:18:17 AM
Quote from: Forzfed
Do you guys rebuild the pumps?
He is always buying new pumps for customers. we send em to Julio. when we get em back we test them . then pick the best out
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 06 2019, 10:58:52 AM
While we got you here Dan, do you think I should put a .63 AR housing on my 6468?  When the weather gets cooler the spool is insane.  In the hot weather it is a little laggy but I haven't leaned out the bottom end.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 06 2019, 11:50:06 PM
So how could anyone know if you need a different housing.  Seems like you need to practice some tuning 101.

Add timing and remove fuel from low gear.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 07 2019, 11:34:32 AM
I know!  I will hit the drag strip first and see how it performs.  I think the .63 would be better suited for the street.  I just haven't been able to make it to the strip to tune.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 07 2019, 01:58:53 PM
Quote from: Forzfed
While we got you here Dan, do you think I should put a .63 AR housing on my 6468?  When the weather gets cooler the spool is insane.  In the hot weather it is a little laggy but I haven't leaned out the bottom end.
Ya like picking a pig in a poke. Years ago we ran 44's with the 85 housing. 99.9 guy's hated the turbo. We made it work. John Craig would do them for me.. GREAT Turbo guy. Straight shooter!! ;)
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 07 2019, 02:20:47 PM
Yeah, John is good people!  I don't think it will make a difference at the track especially boosting off the line.  The turbo definitely breathes on the top end.  I just need to go to the track!! :)
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: wmsonta on November 08 2019, 10:03:20 PM
The video shows about as picture perfect a 9.0x run as it gets. No muss, no fuss. A really clean run.

9.0 @ 147 is unusually high efficiency in my world. Unless they changed the rules, you could run w/o a chute.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 09 2019, 08:37:43 AM
Quote from: wmsonta
The video shows about as picture perfect a 9.0x run as it gets. No muss, no fuss. A really clean run.

9.0 @ 147 is unusually high efficiency in my world. Unless they changed the rules, you could run w/o a chute.
150 is a chute. I think IF it didn't rain she would have got a 8 sec run . Car really runs clean an mean. She does want to go faster and quicker so a chute is in her future.  BUT this is all woulda, coulda, shoulda's :045: Car has to do the talking. 
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Top Speed on November 09 2019, 11:37:43 AM
Just purchased the tester.  I did not know about that.  I think it is cheap insurance to test it before driving since my car sits for so long in between use.  Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Steve Wood on November 09 2019, 11:46:59 AM
Hope Dan is on commission as he has sold two testers for Julio!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 09 2019, 12:41:41 PM
Just purchased the tester.  I did not know about that.  I think it is cheap insurance to test it before driving since my car sits for so long in between use.  Thanks for the info.
Absolutely!  Filling up a jar isn't quite the same.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 09 2019, 05:29:53 PM
Hey Dan,  what was the 1/8 mile time and mph?
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: TexasT on November 11 2019, 09:24:21 PM
https://turbobuick.com/threads/built-3-8-vs-4-1-vs-stage2.464560/

These fellers are arguing over whether the 109 block will do nines and yall are knocking on the door of the eights. Not sure what to think of that. 
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 12 2019, 12:41:17 PM
Hey Dan,  what was the 1/8 mile time and mph?

 it was a 5.73 @ 119.50.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 12 2019, 12:47:50 PM
Quote from: TexasT
https://turbobuick.com/threads/built-3-8-vs-4-1-vs-stage2.464560/ (https://turbobuick.com/threads/built-3-8-vs-4-1-vs-stage2.464560/)

These fellers are arguing over whether the 109 block will do nines and yall are knocking on the door of the eights. Not sure what to think of that. 
Ya I saw that. Only thing I will add are "opinions are just opinions" And things change over the years. 10 sec car is what everyone has now. :045:  Early 90s we were running low 11s @ 122 with blue top's (36#s) .  People questioned me back then. Today there is no way I'd do that now. Crazy whats out there now for our 35 year old cars :023:
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: wmsonta on November 12 2019, 03:19:17 PM
it was a 5.73 @ 119.50.
I am still amazed at the efficiency.

I was at KCIR 7 or 8 yrs ago and a GNX drove in. Had his slicks in the trunk. Put them on and ran 9.17. I was there with a car, but made a point to check it out. He had driven from KCK. It was a GNX clone. Nothing with the motor was oem including the block. He got to run by deceiving tech and was thrown out. It was well above 150 mph.
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Forzfed on November 12 2019, 03:46:37 PM
Hey Dan,  what was the 1/8 mile time and mph?

 it was a 5.73 @ 119.50.
Wow!  I'll even say that backwards, wow!
Title: Re: Russ and Melissa's Turbo Alky car
Post by: Grumpy on November 12 2019, 05:33:43 PM
Quote from: wmsonta
Quote from: Grumpy on Today at 11:41:17 AM (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=6391.msg91635#msg91635) it was a 5.73 @ 119.50.I am still amazed at the efficiency.

Believe me I wonder to. Makes it look simple ! 
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