IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: V6DVette on November 02 2017, 01:30:44 PM
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So after years of putting it off, I'm struggling to get this motor to run right. At least while its still on blocks in the back of the garage. I'm trying to get it to start and idle. Will only start with the throttle partly open. Struggles to start without the throttle open some. (25-40%?) Then its a struggle to keep it running. Anything below 1000 rpms and it stalls. Forget trying to get it to 500 as the IAC setting direction say. Resetting the IAC hasn't seemed to do anything but run down my battery from starting it multiple times. Does the motor really need to be warm for this to work? Also I don't have a check valve in the fuel system yet. I don't see how its really needed for this.
Chip I'm using is a street 009 I got with the injectors. (too many years ago) so I don't know the specs. Translator set at all "0" Fuel @ 42.
UPDATE! Just went out to look at the plugs again. Changed them out yesterday.
This plug is no more then 20 minutes old. They all look like this. Which is why the long I ran the engine the harder it was to keep running I guess. Is it possible that all the injectors are bad? Its not blowing smoke. Something else?
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Time to hook up a scanner and see what the pcm is doing. It could be one of many things.
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What are your coolant temps reading? Could be a variety of things. A bad temp sensor would tell it too dump more fuel. A bad ground. Or an electronic problem.
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The temp never got much above 100. I was trying to set IAC. Start and stopping the engine.The first time I had it running I did have the temp up to 150. Was running crappy is why I checked/changed the plugs the 1st time. They looked the same. But with that run, I started seeing plums of smoke (suddenly) I had that happen once before on my T-type and it turned out to be an injector. This time I had a bad vac leak at the IAC and the PCV was stuck closed so I thought it had something to do with that. All so had the original chip in and the Translator not set right. This time with that all fixed I had no smoke. Still fouled the plugs.
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Time to hook up a scanner and see what the pcm is doing. It could be one of many things.
PCM?
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What is the brand of the chip? Is it burned for those injectors? What is the fuel pressure for that chip...line off.
Can you take a pic of the chip on both sides and post it. With the car sitting for so long I'm wondering if the injectors are gummed up.
Do you have Direct Scan? I know you said the next thing to purchase was Powerlogger. If you have a Scanmaster, is it throwing any codes?
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Extender chip...43 line off. AC 44's for plugs? Possibly to cold a plug?
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Maf?
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Maybe exercise the translator switches then set them back to where they should be.
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No codes and no DS.
Plugs!? All I had on hand were 42s. Didn't think it would make a difference for just a start up.
MAF#25168491 Do they go bad just sitting?
Oh..SM did throw a code the 1st time I tried starting the engine. 45- Ox sensor rich. I cleared it and it never came back.
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MAF is an LT1 or an LS1?
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Time to hook up a scanner and see what the pcm is doing. It could be one of many things.
PCM?
ECM
You must forgive Jeremy for the slip, he has much newer toys than the rest of us :)
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Delphi LS1 comes up as the part number. That's an Extender chip? Thot Bob would have marked it better.
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The car is obviously running extremely rich from the look of the plugs
Typically, I would think bad maf. If the car has a translator, then it could be the translator set up. Or, it could be a chip set up problem if that is an Extender chip but for some reason, that does not look like an extender chip to me but I have not seen many.
Or, if the chip is thought to be an extender chip but is not, it might be the translator is set for extender but it's not an extender and the ecm is seeing the wrong maf numbers as a result.
Without data, it's all a guess.
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Yup my bad!
Doesn’t look like and extender Bob uses a code by injectors, octane, boost and rev limit
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http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=901 (http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=901)
Things might have changed - as this is older info
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I did a search of pics of Bob chips that have been for sale. On the inside he writes Extreme, Extender or Gen 2 with the 'burn' number.
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I never said the 009 chip was an extender chip. I do have one but it was for when I had pipe dreams of racing the car. I thought I was told that if the Translator was set at all "0" a non extender chip would work.
I have to look threw my "files" (yeah sure...) I have them somewhere. I'm sure I got the Translator from Full Throttle. I doubt they have records back that far.
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I never said the 009 chip was an extender chip. I do have one but it was for when I had pipe dreams of racing the car. I thought I was told that if the Translator was set at all "0" a non extender chip would work.
I have to look threw my "files" (yeah sure...) I have them somewhere. I'm sure I got the Translator from Full Throttle. I doubt they have records back that far.
I was going by what was in your sig...my bad.
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Translator Instructions. Mode-All others-Turbotweak- On On On Off
http://turbotweak.com/translatorinstructions.pdf (http://turbotweak.com/translatorinstructions.pdf)
All others. Not sure if that means ONLY Turbotweak. I was always under the assumption you could only run Eric and Bobs chip with the Translator.
If you have the Extender chip...plug it in. Is it a street, race or alky chip? Is it for the 009's?
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Yup my bad!
Doesn’t look like and extender Bob uses a code by injectors, octane, boost and rev limit
hell, let's just call it an ECU
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Ok Thats how I have mine set.
And heres the Extender chip I have (note the date)
And a mystery chip. Anyone know what it is?
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When funds become available grab yourself a Turbotweak chip from Eric. Best money you'll ever spend. The Extender is a race chip with 27 degrees of timing.
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So when do we start the 009 injector discussion? Or isn’t that an issue anymore.
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So when do we start the 009 injector discussion? Or isn’t that an issue anymore.
There's a discussion on 009s?
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Not with a good chip
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Which 009's do you have there are 2 a 30 lb and a 42.5.
A good set of 42.5 are more stable and flow more than 50's at higher pressure. Will that start the discussion?
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I don't think so...
Initially, most people could not burn a good chip for the 42.5# 009's as the flow curve had a knee in it right off idle and many burners only knew how to change the injector constant so they could not get the curve right for all throttle positions.
Steve Yaklin, Eric, and Bob burned good chips for them as they knew how to tweak the individual settings rather than just shift the entire curve up or down from stock.
If that chip is for 30# injectors and the actual injectors are 42.5#, then that would create the situation. I am thinking the chip is not one of Bob's which would screw up the curve if the translator is set for an Extender.
Best advice is to double check the numbers on the injectors and get Eric to burn a new chip for them. Then reset the Translator to work with eric's chip.
Hopefully, the injectors are not stuck open due to a gummed up condition.
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Injectors are D3181AA's=42.5 GTG
So its someones good idea to get a chip burned from TurboTweak.(my pension check came in...LOL) Gonna presume the injectors are ok and go from there. Just to keep it simple. I'm at the point in my life now I like it simple. Hopefully after it's in, the car will start and idle without issues and I'll be able to get on to finishing the rest of the car and drive it before I die. :icon_fU:
But I'm sure I'll be back here to bother you guys about something...
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Which 009's do you have there are 2 a 30 lb and a 42.5.
A good set of 42.5 are more stable and flow more than 50's at higher pressure. Will that start the discussion?
Are you thinking of 40lb and 42.5lb?
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http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/53584-can-anyone-identify-these-fuel-injectors.html (http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/53584-can-anyone-identify-these-fuel-injectors.html)
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http://racetronix.com/621031.html (http://racetronix.com/621031.html)
Who's right?
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I was always under the assumption you could only run Eric and Bobs chip with the Translator.
Translator will work with any chip. The ECM has no idea anythings odd, since....
you know... it translates. :D
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http://racetronix.com/621031.html (http://racetronix.com/621031.html)
Who's right?
About what?
I think those are a replacement for 009's
There are some 'new' designs.
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The extender chip keeps the computer in control of the fuel up to 512 grams of air and the extreme to 768. So figure out how fast you want to go and order a chip.
BTW I think you should call full throttle and get a new set of injectors and an extender chip. Or Eric will sell the same thing I believe.
http://www.turbotweak.com/extender-instructionsf.pdf (http://www.turbotweak.com/extender-instructionsf.pdf)
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Injectors are D3181AA's=42.5 GTG
So its someones good idea to get a chip burned from TurboTweak.(my pension check came in...LOL) Gonna presume the injectors are ok and go from there. Just to keep it simple. I'm at the point in my life now I like it simple. Hopefully after it's in, the car will start and idle without issues and I'll be able to get on to finishing the rest of the car and drive it before I die. :icon_fU:
But I'm sure I'll be back here to bother you guys about something...
Order a street chip from Eric. Give him the part number you see on the side of the injector. Tell him the max boost is 18 PSI...there will enuf high gear fuel in it to not blow it up.
This is a hybrid. Is your ECM getting a MPH signal? If it isn't...you can only adjust WOT fuel. I've dealt with that situation already. Buddy of mine has a hybrid. There's some fukn plug-n-play gadget he installed for the ECM to get the MPH signal. I'll get back when I find out.
https://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1000 (https://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1000)
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Which 009's do you have there are 2 a 30 lb and a 42.5.
A good set of 42.5 are more stable and flow more than 50's at higher pressure. Will that start the discussion?
Are you thinking of 40lb and 42.5lb?
I think he is alluding to the fact that 50# injectors lock up at 50 psi of fuel pressure (hose off-static pressure)
The Lucas injectors are the disc type so they are not as prone to gumming up and staying open so I would think they are not the cause of the immediate problem but ???? :D
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Sorry I read it wrong again and there is no need to crank up the fuel pressure any more with all the new injectors out there but back in the 80's when you didn't have the choices you do now it was common practice to crank the static pressure sky high to get the fuel needed. And the 42.5 would take more pressure before locking up. Hence more fuel.
And to confuse this issue what does 100% duty cycle really mean?
To me it's just a theoretic number based on a certain criteria.
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School me on how to adjust WOT fuel for Bobs chip...cuz I don't see it in any of the 8 parameters or the instructions.
http://www.turbotweak.com/extender-instructionsf.pdf (http://www.turbotweak.com/extender-instructionsf.pdf)
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Injectors are D3181AA's=42.5 GTG
So its someones good idea to get a chip burned from TurboTweak.(my pension check came in...LOL) Gonna presume the injectors are ok and go from there. Just to keep it simple. I'm at the point in my life now I like it simple. Hopefully after it's in, the car will start and idle without issues and I'll be able to get on to finishing the rest of the car and drive it before I die. :icon_fU:
But I'm sure I'll be back here to bother you guys about something...
Order a street chip from Eric. Give him the part number you see on the side of the injector. Tell him the max boost is 18 PSI...there will enuf high gear fuel in it to not blow it up.
This is a hybrid. Is your ECM getting a MPH signal? If it isn't...you can only adjust WOT fuel. I've dealt with that situation already. Buddy of mine has a hybrid. There's some fukn plug-n-play gadget he installed for the ECM to get the MPH signal. I'll get back when I find out.
https://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1000 (https://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1000)
Its call a VSS Converter module and yes I have one.
Chip is on order.
Is it worth it to try to get these injectors tested?
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Is there somewhere in town to get them cleaned? Might be a good idea with them sitting.
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Well 1 way is bump the fuel pressure.
If the computer is in control you shouldn't need to change high gear fueling. Let the computer do that. you are trying to compare it to a predetermined value.based on 256 grams of air.
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There is a diesel injector shop in town. I don't know if they can do gas injectors. Guess I'll have to find out
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There is a diesel injector shop in town. I don't know if they can do gas injectors. Guess I'll have to find out
They should be able to help you out.
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I believe that diesel shops can clean them but maybe not flow them.
Personally I don't like second guessing. i/d just get new flowed ones from whoever you ordered the chip from.
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I'm retired as well so I'm trying to do this as cheaply as possible. 44's are the correct heat range...but you should get it running with the 42's. Gap them at .030. Toss a new fuel filter on...and new O-rings on the injectors. Ohm the coil pack...11-13 thousand is the range. If you verified the thermostat is opening then it's good. The fuel pump sitting for so long mite be an issue. On the first test drive verify the fuel pressure is rising 1 for 1 with boost.
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I believe that diesel shops can clean them but maybe not flow them.
Personally I don't like second guessing. i/d just get new flowed ones from whoever you ordered the chip from.
You guys are gonna make me go find a part time job!
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Are your dip switches in the translater set for the maf you have?
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Are your dip switches in the translater set for the maf you have?
3 up 1 down
I believe thats right. Trim all set @ 0
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The current chip in your car...may have a lower fuel pressure static setting. Maybe that's why it's blackening the plugs...who knows.
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The current chip in your car...may have a lower fuel pressure static setting. Maybe that's why it's blackening the plugs...who knows.
I have one more set of 42s that I'm gonna wait till the new chip comes in to install. Whats the danger in setting the fp lower say no less then 35? I'm not taking the car out on the road yet. Just trying to get it running smooth. Don't even have a set of tires for it.
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You could try turning it down a little at a time and see if the idle smooths out. Personally, I'd wait till Erics chip arrives. When it comes to these cars...guessin g is never a good idea.
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You could try turning it down a little at a time and see if the idle smooths out. Personally, I'd wait till Erics chip arrives. When it comes to these cars...guessin g is never a good idea.
Yeah its fall and its not like I don't have a boat load of crap to do here before winter. No rush
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I'm up here in Canada about 90 minutes east of Toronto in a small resort town. Track closed on the 14th of last month...and doesn't reopen till the first week of April. Currently resurfacing the stairs to the rec room and painting the hallway. Got lots of little jobs to keep me busy till the track reopens.
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Brad; http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=901 (http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=901)
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Brad; http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=901 (http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=901)
I posted the PDF file on the previous page...is it not the same? I see on yours Bobs talking about wastegate percentages. Can you explain in black and white how to adjust high gear fuel with his chip.
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My buddy Steve who races with me with his Turbo'd Hayabusa uses an Ultrasonic Cleaner. I've seen it at his shop. It's a small container with a special solution. Throw your items in and it cleans them. Sorta looks like it's bubbling when it's on.
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Here's a vid of the Ultrasonic Cleaner. The one Steve has is much smaller...ran him about 300 and some odd bucks American. Works mint.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydrCPtU2atU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydrCPtU2atU)
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Wot high gear turn the knob on the translator to add.
Read the whole document- if it still doesn’t make sense I’ll see what I can do later.
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Brad; http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=901 (http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=901)
I posted the PDF file on the previous page...is it not the same? I see on yours Bobs talking about wastegate percentages. Can you explain in black and white how to adjust high gear fuel with his chip.
Why do you think you have to. once set up properly. if the weather changes with the computer controlling fuel it will compensate. no muss no fuss.
On a regular chip the high gear fuel is a fixed value and needs to be tweaked manually.
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Ron...are you referring to the ECM? So the ECM automatically compensates/adjusts high gear fueling with Bobs chip for temp/humidity changes?
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Wot high gear turn the knob on the translator to add.
Read the whole document- if it still doesn’t make sense I’ll see what I can do later.
Adjust the high gear fuel via the Translator. Ok...sounds good. Be a pain in the ass pulling the lid off the Translator all day tho.
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Ron...are you referring to the ECM? So the ECM automatically compensates/adjusts high gear fueling with Bobs chip for temp/humidity changes?
Yes. thats what i am saying, after initial set up. you might have to set the knobs initially but the computer will compensate. The translater chip will control fuel up to 512 gps of air, A stock type chip will only only control up to 256gps of air and the chip burner puts in a predetermined fixed value after 256 is reached. BTY bob makes a commander stock type chip also.
In terms of hp 256 is about 300 hp after that the computer is done 512 is about 600 to the tire and the computer will still control the fuel theoretically.
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The computer follows a predetermined curve that is programmed into the chip. Just because it can fuel for 512gs doesn’t mean its it’s fueling correctly. Hence the fine tune adjustments. In no way does an extender correct wot fueling - it’s open loop wot
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http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/bailey-engineering-extender-chip-for-turbo-buick-v6-gn-t-type.html (http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/bailey-engineering-extender-chip-for-turbo-buick-v6-gn-t-type.html)
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The computer follows a predetermined curve that is programmed into the chip. Just because it can fuel for 512gs doesn’t mean its it’s fueling correctly. Hence the fine tune adjustments. In no way does an extender correct wot fueling - it’s open loop wot
Thanks for the explanation.
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Extend you MAF range to 512 gr/sec!Designed for 50lb and smaller injectors (if your injectors are 55lb. or larger you need Extender Extreme part number 050EXTEXTREM ) the Extender ECM chips are designed to take advantage of the MAF Translator's (and Translator Plus) ability to measure true airflow at high horsepower levels. Instead of the factory 255gr/sec limit the stock computer can now see up to 512 gr/sec of air. This ability to measure all the air entering the engine gives the ECM control to properly adjust injector pulsewidth to maintain correct Air/Fuel ratios for best horsepower under all conditions. Additionally, the Extender chips feature advanced software to permit the user to adjust many parameters that were previously only adjustable by the chip programmer. Please note that these adjustments are for fine tuning only.The chip will plug in and you will be able to drive around with NO adjustments needed[/font]
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above:
Extend you MAF range to 512 gr/sec!Designed for 50lb and smaller injectors (if your injectors are 55lb. or larger you need Extender Extreme part number 050EXTEXTREM ) the Extender ECM chips are designed to take advantage of the MAF Translator's (and Translator Plus) ability to measure true airflow at high horsepower levels. Instead of the factory 255gr/sec limit the stock computer can now see up to 512 gr/sec of air. This ability to measure all the air entering the engine gives the ECM control to properly adjust injector pulsewidth to maintain correct Air/Fuel ratios for best horsepower under all conditions. Additionally, the Extender chips feature advanced software to permit the user to adjust many parameters that were previously only adjustable by the chip programmer. Please note that these adjustments are for fine tuning only.The chip will plug in and you will be able to drive around with NO adjustments needed
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Okay...so say I wanted my NB to come in at 780 throughout the run. How would I program that in. And once I program it in...it'll stay at 780 in all temperatures.. .right?
Next question. If I don't have to do anything...why is there high and low gear fuel adjustments?
This sounds like the chip for me. Get in...put my foot down...and it does all the fueling for me.
And when I move the boost up and down it'll automatically add or subtract fuel for me.
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As I've said above - yes the computer can see 512g/s of airflow. The computer/chip fuel to it's pre programmed fuel curve which may or may not be what the car wants, hence why it will need to be fine tuned.
Remember vendors tell you what you want to hear so you'll spend money with them.
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Brad
1. Combination of base fuel, wot fuel, and low gear wot fuel. And I think you know that answer to temperature.
2. Like pre programmed chips they aren't 100% right
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And yes I owned a translator plus and extender combo from 1999-2005ish. It works well but it's no SD2 chip
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Brad
1. Combination of base fuel, wot fuel, and low gear wot fuel. And I think you know that answer to temperature.
2. Like pre programmed chips they aren't 100% right
Jeremy...you're ruining all my fun...lol!
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Don’t get me wrong Brad it’s a great setup and it does add fuel to 512g/s.
Basically you would be tuning the same parameters just in a different way.
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Don’t get me wrong Brad it’s a great setup and it does add fuel to 512g/s.
Basically you would be tuning the same parameters just in a different way.
Ya, I get the idea...just havin' some fun. When I bought my GN it had an RA chip. I checked Bobs chip and Erics chip. Bobs instructions left me dumbfounded. Erics were easy to understand and adjusting his chip was easy. I don't like working my brain to hard.
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Note the yellow rope hanging from the steering column.
Put the translator in the car!
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Slide ahead to 1:10...you'll see where mine's mounted. I have stick on foam to absorb any vibration...an d there's a hole in front of it. My thot was cool air would hit it and keep the electronics cool. The car never sees rain...so it's fine where it is. I adjust via Erics chip...so there's no need to remove the lid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYqEajQhKFI&t=3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYqEajQhKFI&t=3s)
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I should stay out of this because I am not sure we know what he has...
but, if he has an extender chip, the correct translator settings are on, on, off, off
That is not what he said he had, if I read correctly, sounded like he had it set for a conventional chip...
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Steve...take a look at the pics of the chips. The one is some no name chip...could be anything. The other is an Extender race chip. Erics chip will be here in a few days and he can fire it up.
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I believe he also said he has the dials all on zero but never said what maf he has.
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LS1
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OK is the translator set properly for that?
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Yes...but it doesn't matter. It's a K Mart blue light special chip. Erics 5.7 chip is on the way.
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So here's where I'm at while waiting fr the new chip..
Shop in town only does diesel injectors so I did a Utube search and found a few that showed making a rig so you can flush a injector using carb cleaner spray cans. I figure it might show if an injector is leaking. They are 20 years old though never used. Something to do to take that possibility off the table. Can't afford to just replace them at this point.
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As I said before, they are disk type injectors rather than pintles like the factory Bosch so they are less prone to gumming. Being they were unused, pulsing them with a 9v battery and spraying some fluid thru them should unstick in factory "oil" that in them when sold. Pulse them, don't hold the voltage to them continually. "Rattling the injector body with a pair of pliers or any other means of gently vibrating the body is often beneficial in getting stuck injectors to start working if you think you have a problem injector (s)
I don't recall if you verified the fuel pressure in the rail, or not...be a good idea to do that.
A compression test on all cylinders might show something as well...
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I think I have another gauge I can verify the pressure with. It did adjust up and down with the regulator. (billet style) I just received a check valve to install in the fuel line. Didn't think I really needed it but WTH. I'll do a compression check as soon as I can locate my kit for that.... :(
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sounds like it should be good on fp. Sometimes, I find one that is down around 20 psi and the car won't start.
Put some cleaner plugs in it before you start again
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I have one more new set of plugs but thought I'd clean up the last set just so start and see if the same thing happens with the new chip. If not then put the new plugs in to set the idle and get some base line #s.
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anyone close around to borrow an O2 sensor from?
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You mean like another one or something to test it with? I did do the torch test and does seem to respond. FYI its a four wire heated ford style.. Harness came wired for it from Caspers.
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I would prefer a single wire Denso or Delco unit. I never was convinced that the three and four wire sensors worked as well as the original sensors.
Also, if it still seems rich..remove the air filter and see if that has any positive effect.
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Think it wouild be ok to use a single wire and just tie in to the signal wire of the harness?
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I've killed a lot of Bosch O2 sensors! I put a 3 wire in my low milage car and it's been really good. Like Steve said, the Denso or Delco is all you need. I have the Denso in my other car and it works great.
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Should plug right into the original purple wire connector
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But the original connector isn't there. Harness for the engine came with the four wire. Don't see why I can't splice into the signal wire and leave the four wire plug taped up do you?
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I never had a four wire sensor that worked quite right. The three wire Delco sensors worked pretty well but they don't fail and code like the single wire sensors in many cases. Instead they seem to lose range of voltage swing.
Bosch never lasted long for some reason.
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I never had a four wire sensor that worked quite right. The three wire Delco sensors worked pretty well but they don't fail and code like the single wire sensors in many cases. Instead they seem to lose range of voltage swing.
Bosch never lasted long for some reason.
The four wire is from Ford. I think Jag used them too so what do you expect? lol
I'll leave it be for now. Swap it out if all else fails.
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Yep, I was just trying to get it to a normal state that should work by eliminating the gimmicks...:)
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LOL...There's nothing about this car that's normal. But I do agree about the gimmicks.
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25 years or so ago, we all tried them...don't see them for the most part these days. I even had a Kenne-Bell intercooler fan shroud
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Ya mean that doesn't work? :icon_lol:
How about the water cooled up pipe? :rock:
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someone gave that to me as well, but, I knew that it could not work so I gave it to some kid who thought it was cool
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With that pipe and a little ingenuity 1 and 1/2 tenths and 2 mph. on my car. Maybe it wasn't all the pipe tho. And of no use on the street.
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Man...you old guys had all the fun.
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Man...you old guys had all the fun.
Meaning what exactly?
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Well some bad news. On someone heres recommendation I did a compression test. #4 comes up short. Like 50lbs. Pulled the valve cover and looks like the push rods are ok. So looks like I'll be pulling the head off. :wall:
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Ouch. Well at least you know.
Funny- when my car was maybe 5 years old I took it in to the (large city) dealer for service and they sent the injectors out to a diesel shop for cleaning.
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Way back about 91ish I picked up 10+ feet of about 3/8th copper tubing & wrapped it tight around the up pipe. Made a cold can that went where the battery sits & filled it with ice. Man some of the Tech guys would look at me and say WTF is that supposed to be?
I still have it hanging on the shop wall. :rock:
[size=78%] [/size]
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Ouch. Well at least you know.
Funny- when my car was maybe 5 years old I took it in to the (large city) dealer for service and they sent the injectors out to a diesel shop for cleaning.
Utube, a 9 volt battery, some hose & clamps and a can of carb cleaner. Took longer to pull the injectors.
The guy at the diesel shop seemed disturbed that I even asked.
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Well some bad news. On someone heres recommendation I did a compression test. #4 comes up short. Like 50lbs. Pulled the valve cover and looks like the push rods are ok. So looks like I'll be pulling the head off. :wall:
Did you put some oil in and retest. Could be a stuck ring. You did say it has been sitting.
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I agree with Rich. I'd fire it up with the new chip and let it get some run time before I'd pull it apart.
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I agree with Rich. I'd fire it up with the new chip and let it get some run time before I'd pull it apart.
I did squirt some oil in. Didn't make any difference. But how much is needed? I used maybe 2 table spoons. Could be a stuck valve I guess too.
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With it sitting so long maybe a ring or valve sticking? Just guessing it may be gummed up a bit. Transmission fluid is high in detergents. Maybe dump a litre...sorry it's a Canadian thing...out of the pan and drop a litre of trans fluid in. Let it get up to temperature for a few minutes.
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Can't hurt anything at this point I guess. I hate thinking about pulling the head since the car is still on jack stands I have to work standing on a milk crate.
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Yeah, I was wondering if it might have something like a collapsed lifter or such....With the covers off, you can get some one to turn the engine over while you watch each valve to see if it is going up and down and also watch the lifters to see if the center portion/plunger is moving downward instead of the entire lifter moving.
Before doing this, start it for a moment to make sure the oil pressure fills the lifters.
Before taking it apart, I would like to see if you can get it to run more or less right. Otherwise putting tranny fluid in the oil will be less than beneficial as it needs to run for awhile.
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Good idea. I'll wait till the chip gets here.
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So the chip is in. Engine still runs rich and will only start with part throttle. Wont idle unless the vac line is pulled from the regulator. (getting air from that ) Tried adjusting the IAC screw but can’t open it enough to keep the engine running without pulling the vac line off the regulator. The IAC valve is new (20 years old..but new…lol) I removed it just to inspect it. I suspect its bad. Is the pintle suppose to move in and out easy or not? I measured its length cold and then warm. Seemed like it only moved a few thousands in. The other thing I noticed was the IAC count starts at 175 and stays there. Wont go down on idle till I pull the vac line off and the RPMs rise. Then it goes to “0” So even if the IAC is ok, how would it back off if the count stays at 175? I believe the thermostat is reading right as the fan comes on at 160~. I read that the count should be 140 at crank and down to 108 at start. What could cause my count to be so high to begin with? Is this what could be causing the engine to run so rich on start up?
I haven't looked but I bet I need to change the plugs again. :(
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Erics preset is 140...when you first start it it drops to 108...and then will go to 70-90...then gradually fall as the engine warms up...and then fall between 10-20. As far as I know the ECM sets the RPM from the coolant temperature sensor and the IAC does its thing.
New 02 sensor...good MAF...no air leaks...fuel pressure set to 43...Translato r set correctly...it shouldn't be running rich.
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Why would the fan be coming ON at 160? maybe that will lead you to a solution if the engine never warms up.
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Why would the fan be coming ON at 160? maybe that will lead you to a solution if the engine never warms up.
Eric has the fan come on at 166...that's not his issue.
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MY recollection is that the ECM does some calibration routine on the IAC ,,,,,Maybe if this is a brand new unit the initial position is way out?. I "think" the counts are arbitrary and from the last calibration. If you can see when it calibrates as per attached then ignore me.
Dennis Leek's definitive IAC description:
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj5_oGq9NnXAhVj8IMKHZjbBfIQFgg2MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fturbobuick.com%2Fattachments%2Fidle-speed-control-pdf.179303%2F&usg=AOvVaw01jAMdUqHAYW0th-2wdbX_ (https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj5_oGq9NnXAhVj8IMKHZjbBfIQFgg2MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fturbobuick.com%2Fattachments%2Fidle-speed-control-pdf.179303%2F&usg=AOvVaw01jAMdUqHAYW0th-2wdbX_)
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here
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After reading 10 pages :icon_eyes: :O I'm wondering how the car ran the day you parked it "too many years ago"
As a rule settings like translator switches, IAC, TPS, fuel pressure, Chips or its settings don't change after time. I would start there then look for what varnished gas contaminated, Flush out the fuel system then replace the fuel filter and clean or replace the injectors. Forget about trying to set any parameters until the car can reach operating temps and idle anywhere around 1000rpms. Hold the throttle open with a wedge to do that and forget about iac's for now. Also your low compression could be from the cylinders being washed down from being too rich. Change the oil and filter and dont worry about compression until you have a few hours of running time. To save some money you can clean the plugs with some carb cleaner then rinse with starting fluid also clean the O2 sensor with a propane torch a few minutes until it glows.
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After reading 10 pages :icon_eyes: :O I'm wondering how the car ran the day you parked it "too many years ago"
As a rule settings like translator switches, IAC, TPS, fuel pressure, Chips or its settings don't change after time. I would start there then look for what varnished gas contaminated, Flush out the fuel system then replace the fuel filter and clean or replace the injectors. Forget about trying to set any parameters until the car can reach operating temps and idle anywhere around 1000rpms. Hold the throttle open with a wedge to do that and forget about iac's for now. Also your low compression could be from the cylinders being washed down from being too rich. Change the oil and filter and dont worry about compression until you have a few hours of running time. To save some money you can clean the plugs with some carb cleaner then rinse with starting fluid also clean the O2 sensor with a propane torch a few minutes until it glows.
The donor car the engine came from was wrapped around a tree I was told. I believe that because the header was damaged on the passenger side and that side valve cover was cracked where it hit the fire wall. The kid that owned the car just had the engine rebuilt. I pulled the intake and oil pan off and it was spotless so I believe that too. The entire fuel system is new. Foam filled Fuel cell, pump, braided SS lines, 2 filters, (strainer before the pump, filter after) Everything was rinsed and flushed before starting the engine.
So I'm gonna pull and clean the plugs again, clean the 02 sensor and start the engine again. Get it above 1000 RPMs and let it run while I read all about the IAC Dave linked to. I may run out of gas (again) Who knew that little thing was worth 5 pages!
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Steve...rememb er Dans Roadrunner with the foam filled fuel cell from this spring. Not related...but I'd be getting that crap outta there.
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I remember
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Todays update= after cleaning plugs and O2- Turned on the key and toggled to IAC- it was reading 140. Started engine and it shoots up to 175. I don't understand why that would happen. Also the AF was 20! I shimmed the throttle to around 1000 RPM and let it run for 1/2hr. Fan coming on @166.(eyes tearing even with the exhaust piped outside) Some where around 150~ suddenly the engine smoothed out some. I checked the AF and it went down to 7. IAC down to 0.
Was able to plug the vac like back in the regulator and the idle came down to about 750 -800.
I stopped while I was ahead??? (+ my bride was calling me in for dinner)
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You're on your way now. Good luck
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If that fuel cell has foam in it...drain it and remove the foam. The link is of Dan Kellers Roadrunner he brought up from Florida last winter. It was a built race car that was stored for several years. Upon fire up the fuel pressure gauge was bouncing. Picked Steves brain here on the board as to the issue...and it ended up being the foam had deteriorated over the years and got stuck in the fuel line. I believe it was the line between the tank and filter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BwiPoRlpxo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BwiPoRlpxo)
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Well it's been awhile and over 20 gallons of gas used. No changes. Starts and runs fine after the engine has passed 150 degs. I guess I'm gonna just have to wait till I can get the car on the road to see if the puter will re-learn how to start properly. So unless you guys can come up with something I'm gonna call it good till it can be put on the road.
Got lots to do to finish her up anyway. Thanks for all your help. I'm sure I'll be back.
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I have never heard of cleaning the o2 sensor, when they go bad i just replace them.
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with the iac set normally, there will be about 1.5 threads of the adjustment screw tip emerging to contact the lever. Is this where yours is?
It sounds like there is an air leak somewhere to me that is making it lean until the ecm goes closed loop and adds some fuel to it... that is assuming the injectors are spraying correctly. I don't remember if you changed, cleaned, or what to them before starting.
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with the iac set normally, there will be about 1.5 threads of the adjustment screw tip emerging to contact the lever. Is this where yours is?
It sounds like there is an air leak somewhere to me that is making it lean until the ecm goes closed loop and adds some fuel to it... that is assuming the injectors are spraying correctly. I don't remember if you changed, cleaned, or what to them before starting.
If set the the iac @ 1.5 threads it would never start. I need to give it part throttle to start. Once started it still needs throttle to run. Upwards of 15-1900 rpms. Runs very rich!
Here's a typical run from cold start to hot
O2-847 828
AF-46 12
L8-163 63
Bat-13.5
INT-128
BL-118
CLT-70 164
ATS-63 70
RPM-1900 900
TPS-90 44
IAC-175 00
Runs like crap cold.Sputters and stalls if I let the throttle down. Plugs foul out pretty fast. (gone threw 4 set not counting cleaning each set a few times) Once the temp is above 150ish, it's almost like a different engine. Idle smooths out. Will start with no added throttle and idles fine. Can "blip" the throttle and its crisp.
I was running it every few days with pretty much the same results. I don't think it could be an air leak as I have checked for one (couple of times) If I pull the PCV hose off while cold, the engine runs better. Higher RPMs but better. If I crank open the throttle plate more I can't get the idle down.
Thats where I left it. Have the dash pod out right now to replace the tach so it will be awhile till I can run it again.
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Your MAF numbers are way off.
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Your MAF numbers are way off.
Bingo! if your maf numbers are at idle, then the maf appears to be bad. It should be 4-6 at idle...with high numbers, the computer will be flooding the engine with fuel.
It looks like it is 12 with the tps at .44 instead of 4-6
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Maybe not. If he is bypassing the iac and forcing a higher idle with the throttle stop screw, Then adjusted the tps to .44 at this stage. The MAF will show a higher reading. Let him adjust the tps to 44 with a 600-650 idle the see what the MAF reports
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maybe, maybe not...for sure the iac is adjusted incorrectly... but the numbers at the warmed up readings are 900 at 12 af which is not too far off. As you say, he is using the iac screw to adjust the idle speed with. If he backs it out when warm, the tps voltage will drop and may need to be readjusted before it is all said and done. Long as it is between 0.38-0.044 all should be good.
Altho I think I said it seemed to be too lean in my last post, it is way rich from what he is saying...that seems to go with his maf numbers.
I would certainly follow your advice to get it warmed up before setting tps and iac.
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maybe, maybe not...for sure the iac is adjusted incorrectly... but the numbers at the warmed up readings are 900 at 12 af which is not too far off. As you say, he is using the iac screw to adjust the idle speed with. If he backs it out when warm, the tps voltage will drop and may need to be readjusted before it is all said and done. Long as it is between 0.38-0.044 all should be good.
Altho I think I said it seemed to be too lean in my last post, it is way rich from what he is saying...that seems to go with his maf numbers.
I would certainly follow your advice to get it warmed up before setting tps and iac.
I will certainly try this as soon as I get the dash back together again. Is there any way to test the MAF? Or by the numbers its showing enough to just swap it out? That is after I run the the tps voltage down. ([size=78%] I think I did this when I 1st set it up but can't hurt) [/size]
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I just looked at your signature and see you have a translator. They seldom fail. I think I would make sure the dip switches and other thumbwheel switches are set properly for a TT chip.
I would also make sure that the grounds are good.
normally, the maf should read 3 with the key on, engine not running...Tran slator might read slightly different. I don't have anything with a maf or a translator installed. Perhaps someone else can verify what their translator reads with the KOEOff
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What maf are you running? I will check in the am what the maf is koeoff if no one else knows already.
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What maf are you running? I will check in the am what the maf is koeoff if no one else knows already.
25168491
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As stated, the maf should read 3 with the key on, engine off.
Your signature is saying the car has a translator which must have a late model LT or LS maf.
Could you please clarify? Factory maf and no translator OR late model maf with translator?
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Is the maf on right, arrow pointing toward intake?
The settings in the translator are different for an extender and TT chip,
Just throwing out ideas.
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As stated, the maf should read 3 with the key on, engine off.
Your signature is saying the car has a translator which must have a late model LT or LS maf.
Could you please clarify? Factory maf and no translator OR late model maf with translator?
I have the 25168491 MAF and translator.
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Okay...85mm LS or Z06 maf, I think. Here is a thread from Eric on it http://turbotweak.com/forum/index.php?threads/tip-in-stumble-with-z06-maf-and-translator.1728/ (http://turbotweak.com/forum/index.php?threads/tip-in-stumble-with-z06-maf-and-translator.1728/)
I would start by ensuring the translator is set on the thumbwheels for this maf on the default settings, and I would set the dip switches for the TT chip...or be sure that they are already set properly.
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Dip switches for Erics chip are on on on off. Z06 MAF requires the base knob to be set to 6. A special 3 to 5 pin wire is required as well...availab le from FT. Same setup I have on my POS.
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Dip switches for Erics chip are on on on off. Z06 MAF requires the base knob to be set to 6. A special 3 to 5 pin wire is required as well...availab le from FT. Same setup I have on my POS.
Well CRAP! I had the base set @ 0! Now I have to hurry and finish the dash wiring so I can check whether that's the problem. I hope it's that easy.
Thanks for making me double (really triple) check that setting.
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Stars and runs MUCH better! ('magin that?)
Still need to give it a bit of throttle to start but not running rich. Idles smooth. But now I have to chase down an electrical gremlin that I didn't have before I pulled the dash. When the fan starts it pulls the voltage down so far the car almost stops. And the voltage seems to not be steady on the Scanmaster. Bouncing around from 12.1 -13.8 at a steady idle. Gotta be a ground as the alt puts out 13.8
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Be sure to go back and set the iac and tps right, if you have not.
It does not have to be a ground. But make sure the ecm is showing a good ground. You might take your meter to the ecm fuse and read the voltage at that point using a chassis ground as well as the ecm case and see if you see a different voltage.
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Will do. Everything has its own ground. (plastic car) :eek: Doesn't mean I didn't miss one.
I think the alt. is showing its age. Should have around 14.5v at idle..13.8 its not charging the battery enough between start-ups.
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I keep forgetting...p robably is the ground altho the SM voltage comes out of the ECM and the feed to the ecm is normally thru the ecm fuse. There is an ecm ground wire in the bundle that normally goes to the back of the head but grounding the ecm case should also do it as I recall.
First trick is to make sure you have good voltage at the ecm fuse and then onward from there to the ecm input.
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Will do. Everything has its own ground. (plastic car) :eek: Doesn't mean I didn't miss one.
I think the alt. is showing its age. Should have around 14.5v at idle..13.8 its not charging the battery enough between start-ups.
When you get a BLM reading with the engine warmed up post it. Idle fuel for the Z06 can be adjusted for lean/rich via numbers 7 and 8.
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Will do. Everything has its own ground. (plastic car) :eek: Doesn't mean I didn't miss one.
I think the alt. is showing its age. Should have around 14.5v at idle..13.8 its not charging the battery enough between start-ups.
When you get a BLM reading with the engine warmed up post it. Idle fuel for the Z06 can be adjusted for lean/rich via numbers 7 and 8.
Ok heres the latest#s cold & hot
o2-800 761
af-05 05
l8-38 34
bat-14.3 14.0
int-128 128
bl-128 118
mph
clt-120 164
ats-67 108
r-850 950
tps-44 44
iac-175 00
New NGK UR5s set @.30
A little hard to start today. Would start and stall till I opened the throttle some to get her to stay running. Then ran rough for a few secs.Then idled ok as I slowly let off the throttle.
ECM ground is off the frame and shows almost no difference from its bonding point to the frame.
I did notice as the engine warmed up the voltage from the Alt. went down some. Like .5-1.5 volt which by the time it gets to the battery is about 13.5 and less when the fan starts.
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The car is showing slightly rich when warmed up...but, I would not be concerned until I could drive it about five miles to see what the chip can learn.
the IAC either is not adjusted correctly, or, it may not be working right. Normally, down here, mine will run around 60 or so when cranked up and warm up to around 10-30 when adjusted right in Park...it's not critical as one may hear. If it is reading 00 it is holding the blade off position and is not controlling idle. As I said before, about 1.5 threads emerging is approximately correct
I never believe the PL voltage reported to be gospel. It's an A to D conversion and it often changes, in my experience, as the ECM warms up. I would check the voltage coming out of the alternator and see what it says and then read the voltage at the fan connector to see what it says. I also usually check the voltage in the ecm voltage fuse connectors to see what is going to the ECM.
If I recall correctly, the path is alternator to battery to starter to fusible links to bulkhead connector to the ignition switch to the ecm fuse to the ecm.
I have found, several times, that the ignition switch connectors are not making good contact and the voltae will jump around when you touch them. Also, I have seen a few that had corroded contacts in the fuse holder (ecm fuse) Not so uncommon in cars that have sat a lot, I think.
I have also seen the SM voltage change with different ecms...best to check actual voltages in my experience rather than scan tool voltages...tha t's my experience