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Tech Area => Transmissions => Topic started by: TexasT on September 30 2012, 10:46:18 PM

Title: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on September 30 2012, 10:46:18 PM
I have been ramping up to do one of these for years. I bought my car new and have had trans probs pretty much the whole time. After the dealer cancelled my warranty and I got to pay for my own a local shop talked me into a 700r4. He build several 2004r units but was better at getting the 700r4 to live. It worked good. Unfortunately, I blew a head gasket about ten years ago and the car sat. Fast forward, i got the hg replaced but the fp was whacked so a new fp regulator got her running good. I replaced the window sweeps so I could drive it. Unfortunately, the power master quit and I did a hydroboost conversion. Wow, It never had brakes or stopping power like it does now.


This brings us to a few weeks ago. Trans started rattling. Could be torque converter or who knows. I have wanted to build a 2004r to go back in. It has a 27 spline higher stall converter so it will be removed and taken to be cut and cleaned. I bought several 2004r units used and think I can put one together. The one we chose to try first is a piece for a Cadillac with an AA code.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/uh7311zbv/IMAG2646_1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uh7311zbv/)

AA code on tail shaft and valve body

(https://s25.postimg.cc/w901w0g4r/IMAG2650.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/w901w0g4r/)

(https://s25.postimg.cc/h0a4i9wqz/IMAG2655.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/h0a4i9wqz/)

Might be the reason this one was at the yard. The accumulator spring came out in three pieces.
(https://s25.postimg.cc/pjy3tbk23/IMAG2667.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pjy3tbk23/)Plate was a little marred but I think it can be reused.

(https://s25.postimg.cc/qxl5bfz8r/IMAG2666.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qxl5bfz8r/)

We will be replacing the stator shaft with a hardened piece.

(https://s25.postimg.cc/6q7pj0rfv/IMAG2654.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6q7pj0rfv/)

Pulled the pan and ready to get the tc lockup solenoid off so we can pull the pump.

(https://s25.postimg.cc/5b64udinv/IMAG2660.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5b64udinv/)]

Got the vb, accumulator pistons, and the tc lockup solenod off but it got dark so I pulled her up into the garage.

(https://s25.postimg.cc/lyxmwwg0b/IMAG2664.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/lyxmwwg0b/)

More when we get more done.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: Steve Wood on September 30 2012, 11:53:50 PM
so what are you going to do for a valve body that will provide the shifts and the clutch life of the TR valvebody?
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: David Husek on October 04 2012, 02:50:32 PM
What year is this trans? I have an idea via the VB code, but the tag cannot be read because of dirt, can you post a new pic of the tag? Or the numbers from the tag?
 
Other than the AA coded trans, what others codes do you have?
 
If you need tech or any parts for the rebuild, give me a call anytime.....
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on October 05 2012, 10:14:40 PM

Quote
so what are you going to do for a valve body that will provide the shifts and the clutch life of the TR valvebody?

Well, I haven't really come up with a for sure direction. I do have a brf trans with what I think is the correct vb/governor combo. This one was one I picked up in Houston a few years back when we lived there. It came out of a Cadillac.
Quote
What year is this trans? I have an idea via the VB code, but the tag cannot be read because of dirt, can you post a new pic of the tag? Or the numbers from the tag? Other than the AA coded trans, what others codes do you have?  If you need tech or any parts for the rebuild, give me a call anytime.....

I will definitely take you up on that offer. I am no trans guy by any stretch but I have done a transfer case(np246) and engines(Buick v6, bbc, bbb asssembly). I have a desire to learn. I will get better pix of  the tag. We actually have the trans pretty much disassembled. I found a local trans shop that said he would run it through his hot tank for $25, so I will get that done to get the case clean.

The clutches and steels that I can see look pretty new but I haven't gotten the clutches that need to be compressed  appart yet. The ones that are in the drum are very loose and took some finegaling to get the forward drum in there when not in the case. It does appear to have the torrington bearings from the factory. Also appears to have all the springs in the drum clutches.

I'll post some more pix when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on October 22 2012, 08:48:05 PM
What year is this trans? I have an idea via the VB code, but the tag cannot be read because of dirt, can you post a new pic of the tag? Or the numbers from the tag?
 
Other than the AA coded trans, what others codes do you have?
 
If you need tech or any parts for the rebuild, give me a call anytime.....


I have another AA one and a unit with brf on the tail but I haven't pulled the pan to check out the vb. I figured I could shave some weight on the aa governor to get the shift points up.


Here are some more pix.


(https://s25.postimg.org/pwphzjzrv/IMAG2676.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/pwphzjzrv/)
better tag pic


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200%204r%20build/IMAG2836.jpg)
Low/Reverse tool


(https://s25.postimg.cc/anzklriy3/IMAG2677.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/anzklriy3/)
Pulled the pump


(https://s25.postimg.cc/h1onp2szv/IMAG2687.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/h1onp2szv/)
servo removal. We have a billet unit to put in.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/xpg5rmdhn/IMAG2695.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xpg5rmdhn/)
pulled the band out. looks pretty new.

(https://s25.postimg.cc/9lpe3b05n/IMAG2690.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9lpe3b05n/)

(https://s25.postimg.cc/wn5z927iz/IMAG2692.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wn5z927iz/)
drum and forward drum
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on February 03 2013, 12:49:52 PM
Quote
The transmission identification is on a plate on the right side of the case towards the tailshaft. This ID tag is usually held on by one rivet. The plate will have a two- or three-letter transmission code in large letters, and then a 13- or 14-digit identification number along the bottom:

1st digit: month of production (A through M, skipping the letter "I")
2nd-3rd: production day of the month
4th: shift transmission was produced (1st-3rd shift)
5th: assembly plant (T: Three Rivers, MI; J: Windsor, Canada; W: Warren, MI)
6th-7th: decade and year
8th-9th: or 8th-10th: transmission ID code
10th-13th: or 11th-14th: transmission serial number


This came from a member named ape over on this site  http://www.impalas.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-3818.html (http://www.impalas.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-3818.html)




This would indicated this particular unit came from an 84 so probably no hardened stuff or bearings.

I have talked to several and everyone of them stated a brf vb/gov was needed. Unfortunately my meager budget isnt really up for that. So, I will be attempting to make the vb I have work.

I have determined that a .500 boost valve will do for my application as the .555 is 2-3 times more and I have read of problems with the .570 .
The low/rev valve doesnt say what it is other than large ratio. Still studying on it.

I am saving up for a Raybestos red Clutch kit from my local place. His prices are two to three times what seems to be available on the internet on a lot of stuff. I like to keep it local and I also like to support our vendors in the community my budget just cant take that kind of a hit.

I will be replacing the stator support and sun shell with a hardened pieces. I am studying up on the bearings and their places. Apparently there is a bushing under the sprag that it is best replaced with a bearing.

I have also read up on springs and am still reading. Lots of info out there and not all goes in the same direction.

I have found that a white spring is good for the 1-2 accumulator and a red one for the 3-4 accumulator so I think that is the baseline I will start with.

Going to stay with the 7 vane pump but will put in new slide springs and hardened rings.

Also reading up on the line bias valve. springs n such.

So concludes my progress. I will post more as I do more.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on February 17 2013, 09:09:13 PM
I received some of the stuff including the hard rings, .500 boost valve and large rev boost valve and stiffer springs for that circuit and the pump slide. I did did talk to Mr. Husek though it was just after the super storm sandy so he was kinda busy. I also spoke with a fellow from Michigan that was confident in his methods and answered a bunch of questions. I java continued to scour the interwebz for info. I found an old yet very informative article on shift characteristic s and how to manipulate them

Http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1998/1998-05/gmay98p7.htm (http://Http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1998/1998-05/gmay98p7.htm)

My next quest is to determine a servo/piston combo.
I have found that back when people used a th200 setup
Cover -8628134
Piston -8628112

I also read about one referred to as the case stretcher but the person selling them has disappeared.

I did come across a 692 cover as I hit a few older shops I pass in my travels. I think this setup is similar to the servo/piston used in the mcss and 84-85 tr trans. I may go back by there and see of the guy will part with it.

I do have a used billet setup I bought years ago but I'm not sure of its origin. I will probably start off with it.

Waiting on my tax return so I can order clutches, hard Sun shell an stator support and the torringron bearings.

Will update as I make more progress.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on June 30 2013, 08:09:19 PM
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.


is this some kind of way of telling me i'm slow?

Oh well, i'm posting anyway to keep it together.

I was able to procure a sonnax billet servo setup, It looks real nice and  from my reading it is best for not having the 3-2 downshift clunk. I bought a set of bearings. They even say made in USA on the packaging.
I bought some clutches, regular browns for the low/rew, over run and over drive and some red ones for the direct.

I watched several vids on youtube on how to get the seals into the clutch stuff. I rigged up some seal poking "tools" out of a plastic liter bottle. And I used the .008 feeler gauge as suggested in the ck book.

(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3871.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3871.jpg.html)[size=78%]


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3873.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3873.jpg.html)


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3804-1.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3804-1.jpg.html)


A tub of assembly lube


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3801.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3801.jpg.html)


I'll need to procure some washers as these have some wear.


This washer was the one I bought the bearings kit to replace. I thought it only cheap insurance.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3797-1.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013/IMAG3797-1.jpg.html)









[/size]
[/color]
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on June 30 2013, 08:31:14 PM
Assembling the lower section in my custom lower assembly stand.

(https://s25.postimg.cc/d6l9mn7az/IMAG3810.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/d6l9mn7az/)

(https://s25.postimg.cc/fnx0u2jjf/IMAG3857.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fnx0u2jjf/)

(https://s25.postimg.cc/medi3gwej/IMAG3858.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/medi3gwej/)

My back woods solution for compressing the direct piston to get the snap ring back on.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/gdft6gudn/IMAG3879.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/gdft6gudn/)


As seen in the above post I have some worn washers and such so some new thrust washers and some thicker selectives and maybe a shim or three might be needed. I had a LOT of clearance in the lower section when assembled on the bench.

(https://s25.postimg.org/9a7xqo1qz/IMAG3818.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/9a7xqo1qz/)



(https://s25.postimg.cc/sfb70fo4r/IMAG3819.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/sfb70fo4r/)
I got a rubber tip for my blow gun and there is a hole in the low/rev setup. Putting air into the hole gets a piston to pop up, I thought it quite successful.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/ch2ha9jm3/IMAG3808.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ch2ha9jm3/)

Checked the clearance on the pinions on the planetaries. so far all with in spec and no side to side when wiggling the pinions on their shaft.

Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on June 30 2013, 08:37:54 PM
http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/slideshow/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013 (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/slideshow/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013)


Link to the rest of the pix from today.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: SuperSix on July 01 2013, 12:44:26 PM
Are you following a guide or something? I have a few spare BRF units, I may give it a shot.

Great thread, BTW.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on July 04 2013, 09:10:13 AM
I have this


http://www.bulkpart.com/2/product/200-4Rmanuals/54400B.html (http://www.bulkpart.com/2/product/200-4Rmanuals/54400B.html)


and this


http://www.ckperformance.com/resources/GM2004RTECHNICALMANUAL.html (http://www.ckperformance.com/resources/GM2004RTECHNICALMANUAL.html)


and a gm book called Principles of Operation that shows how all the things interact with each other. I highly recommend a copy if you want to know what the fluid does and where it goes to do different things inside the trans.


(https://s25.postimg.org/p1gtlklrv/IMAG6012.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/p1gtlklrv/)



I have been told I cant do it, I shouldn't do it, and I would be better off to have someone build it. Well if I had the budget, I'd have a lot of things done for me. Unfortunately, I'm a working guy with a mini budget, lack of time as I do spend a lot of time working, attending youth sports and doing family things. This gets me here.


I highly recommend a call to Mr Husek above. He was very friendly and answered a lot of questions and gave me some direction. He can get you the parts you need. Others have answered questions I emailed or pm'd them,and still more others did not and I'll leave it at that. I know these are guys who make a living at it so they have to make money, I get it. Not bashing, just stating it as it happened to me.


In no way is the way I'm doing it the right way, or the only way. Heck back to the budget thing, If I had the money I'd be buying the billet drum and dual feeding. I don't so I'm not this time. Heck If I had the money Id be having someone else do the whole thing and I'd just drive the thing, but where is the fun in that?


Oh well, I'm off to see the local 4th of July Parade. So much to do, so little time.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: daveismissing on July 04 2013, 10:04:41 AM
This is really interesting, thanks for being so detailed!

And I appreciate the fact David Husek  stopped by with some help,
the kind of thing I'll remember when I need transmission work,

Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on July 06 2013, 08:52:38 AM
(https://s25.postimg.cc/gq77cmx7v/IMAG3886.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/gq77cmx7v/)
We have too much clearance on the lower unit. I will order some new thrust washers and see if we can take the slack up. I have read that these were built quite loose from the factory. This is over .040 so I'm sure it can be tightened up.


(https://s25.postimg.org/ea5dyus0r/IMAG3905.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ea5dyus0r/)


These are the "scarf" cut rings. We will be installing solid Teflon pieces. from my reading the solid seals better and with the big cut in the "scarf" cut I can see why. The kit came wth the cut pieces so I ordered a bag of the solid as I read that they are hard to install. I figured I'd hurt some but it wasn't near as difficult as described. The ones I put on the input shaft I soaked in some very hot water as I read that this helps them stretch. The set I put on the forward drum I just put them on with no prep. I didnt really see the benefit of the hot water. If you do it and have trouble maybe the hot water would help. Your call.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/m1m3xfjbf/IMAG3901.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/m1m3xfjbf/)

Bag of new solid rings.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20070413/IMAG3906.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20070413/IMAG3906.jpg.html)


dish of hot water I warmed up in microwave and brought to garage. Wife not too keen on me doing this ring install in her kitchen. I don't let her cook in my garage so I moved my activity back out there.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/tucrpfrvf/IMAG3912.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/tucrpfrvf/)

new rings on shaft.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/5duluyyuj/IMAG3914.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5duluyyuj/)

sizing tool made from some more of the plastic liter drink bottle and some hose clamps. first work the rings into the grooves with your fingers. Then with the plastic get the rings situated and clamp them down with the hose clamps. I like that the plastic is clear as it allowed me to see we didn't pinch the rings and that they are situated into there respective grooves. Let them sit. I went back and checked on them and repostitioned the clamps to get the rings uniform. After this I was able to get the shaft into the stator support where the rings(two of them) with live.

(https://s25.postimg.cc/3nbksxz5n/IMAG3918.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3nbksxz5n/)


This part is not for the faint of heart. To replace the bearing down in the planetary one must remove the planet gears and the associated pieces. The snap ring comes off then the real "fun" begins as there are little rollers like a universal joint that the planet gears ride on around the pinion shafts. when you pull the pinion shaft and slide the planet gear out keep track of the shims as therse clearance the gears to the housing and are important to put back where they came from. also those rollers come out so have a clean place to catch them.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/64nc06o6z/IMAG3919.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/64nc06o6z/)


(https://s25.postimg.cc/3nbksy6vf/IMAG3925.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3nbksy6vf/)
I made a couple of scratch marks with a screwdriver on the housing next to the pinion hole to keep track of where the setups came from so I could put them back the same as they came apart.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/5rvxu1nxn/IMAG3928.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5rvxu1nxn/)

you can see the rollers in the gear around the shaft. I didn't take pix as my hands were covered in transgel getting these back into the housing. Don't forget the new bearing as that is why we took it apart to begin with.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/m2w1qexvf/IMAG3942.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/m2w1qexvf/)

the old ones didnt look bad but I bought new so we will put those in.


(https://s25.postimg.cc/6heq6ge7f/IMAG3938.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6heq6ge7f/)

over run clutches. We are using borg warner regular brown. These arent 'shifting' clutches so we don't need special frictions here.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20070413/IMAG3940.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20070413/IMAG3940.jpg.html)


Soaking the overrun clutches


(https://s25.postimg.org/5t5vnfn6j/IMAG3935.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5t5vnfn6j/)


two of the snap ring pliers I used.


(https://s25.postimg.org/dlwjfedq3/IMAG3932-1.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dlwjfedq3/)


The over run housing with sun gear on. I put new seals in it but I guess I didn't take any pix.


(https://s25.postimg.org/787gc7lpn/IMAG3945.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/787gc7lpn/)


Takes some finagling to get this back together as a lot of gear teeth must mesh up.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on July 21 2013, 10:39:23 AM
I found an article that outlines what affects the shift timing of the 2004r. I think it would also apply to the th200c but not sure. It is long and I had to read it over several times to keep the statements straight in my head. Apparently the governor isn't the only thing that affects where the 2004r shifts.





It's no secret that my favorite overdrive transmission for street racing is the 200-4R. The purpose of this article is not to say that we at ATRA condone this type of illegal activity, but we're pretty sure people are going to continue. And I've always felt that if you're going to do something, right or wrong, you may as well do it right. So in this article, we're going to look at ways to eliminate most of the driveability quirks, and at the same time, keep the performance feel.

With so many different combinations of engine parts, such as cams and intake manifolds to name just a couple, it's very unlikely that one type of modification will work in every application. Whether you buy a box of colored springs to get in the ballpark or start with a stock valve body, one thing is very clear: With a high performance engine, you will need to fine-tune the valve body to get maximum performance from the vehicle.

When a high performance engine is done right, you can pick up a lot of performance by keeping the engine within its RPM performance range. For example: if a big block 454 stops developing power above 6500 RPM, you can't have the transmission holding the full throttle 1­2 upshift to 6700 RPM. There's far more vehicle performance to be gained with shift timing, rather than shift feel. So in this article we'll deal with shift timing modifications, and leave the hard shifts for another time.

The hardest part about fine tuning the 200-4R, especially for street use is there are so many valves to work with. Each of these valves offer a slightly different way to modify shift timing. For example, if you want to delay upshifts, you could work with the governor, TV adjustment, MTV up, or the individual shift valve springs. The valve you choose depends on exactly how you want to delay your upshift.

Understanding the function of these valves will help you make this decision. I know that some of you don't care about how each valve functions, but quite frankly, if you want to build a transmission for a fast car, you need to step up to the plate. Could you just imagine if the John Force crew chief, Austin Coil, said, "I don't know how fuel injection works ... I just tune it." I will however, try to keep it short, to the point, and leave out as much math homework as I can. Keep in mind that while most of these principles also apply to many different transmissions, some may not. Throughout this article, I am writing about the 2004R only.

Basics: Governor pressure is acting on one side of the shift valves, trying to force the valves toward the upshifted position, while all other pressures, such as shift valve spring tension, MTV pressure, and detent pressure are trying to force the shift valve toward the downshifted position.

Governor: Modifying governor pressure changes all upshift and downshift timings. Raising governor pressure makes all upshifts and downshifts occur at lower vehicle speeds. Lowering governor pressure makes all upshifts and downshifts occur at higher vehicle speeds. You can alter the governor pressure by changing the size of the small governor weight or the spring tension on the small governor weight (figure 1).
(http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1999/1999-07/gjul99p16a.jpg)
http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1999/1999-07/gjul99p16a.jpg (http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1999/1999-07/gjul99p16a.jpg)
Figure 1

Modifying the spring tension tends to have a greater effect on governor pressure at lower vehicle speeds rather than higher speeds. A lighter spring lowers governor pressure and a heavier spring increases governor pressure.

Modifying the governor weights tends to change governor pressure at all vehicle speeds above 5­10 MPH. A lighter weight lowers governor pressure and a heavier weight increases pressure at any given vehicle speed.

If you want to make any other shift timing modifications you'll have to make them in the valve body. Figure two shows all of the valves we'll discuss here.

Throttle Valve: There is only one adjustment for the TV cable. You should set it to maximum at full throttle and then leave it alone. Make all other shift timing and shift feel adjustments with valve body or governor modifications.

If this vehicle did not originally have a 2004R in it, the TV cable may not be properly calibrated or set up for this vehicle. If this is the case on the car you're working on, there is an excellent "Ask The Experts" article in GEARS, May 1997 that shows how to check and correct TV cable installation and calibration problems.

Shift Valve Springs: Shift valve springs tend to control upshift and downshift timing at light throttle opening, while having a slight effect on the medium-to-full throttle shifts. A heavier spring will raise the upshift and downshift speeds while a lighter spring will lower the upshift and downshift speeds. The main reason to modify this spring is to modify one particular shift. For example, if you want to lower the 2­3 upshift but leave the 1­2 and the 3­4 alone, replace the 2­3 shift valve spring with a lighter one.

MTV Up: This valve determines two things: First, the valve blocks TV pressure from getting to any of the shift valves until TV pressure is high enough to move the MTV Up valve. Once this happens, the MTV Up valve regulates TV pressure. The MTV Up valve controls the sensitivity of the light-to-medium upshifts. A heavier MTV Up spring makes the light-to-medium upshifts earlier. A lighter MTV Up spring makes the light-to-medium upshifts later. Once the shift valve upshifts, the shift valve blocks MTV Up pressure, so it no longer controls the shift valve.

MTV Down: This valve also determines two things: First the valve blocks TV pressure from getting to any of the shift valves--except the 1-2 shift valve--until TV pressure is high enough to move the MTV Down valve. Once this happens the MTV Down valve regulates TV pressure. The MTV Down valve controls the sensitivity of the light-to-medium 3­2 and 4­2 downshifts, and also lockup when the valve body has a converter clutch shift valve. A heavier MTV Down spring makes the unit less likely to get light-to-medium throttle downshifts at any given speed. The unit is more likely to remain in the higher gears. A lighter MTV Down spring makes the unit more likely to get light-to-medium downshifts at any given speed. The unit is more likely to downshift, rather than stay in the higher gears. Once the shift valve downshifts, the shift valve blocks MTV Down pressure, so it no longer controls the shift valve. Figure three shows a chart showing how both MTV up and MTV down behave based on TV pressure rise.

TV limit: This valve controls the maximum pressure the TV valve can produce. Since TV pressure feeds the MTV Up and MTV Down valves, changing the maximum TV pressure will affect the MTV valve pressures slightly. However, detent (kickdown) pressure is controlled directly by the TV limit valve, and changing the TV limit spring can change detent pressure considerably. High detent pressure will prevent full throttle 1­2, 2­3, 3­2 and 2­1 shifts until vehicle speeds are high. Low detent pressure will allow the full throttle 1­2, 2­3, 3­2 and 2­1 shifts at low vehicle speeds. A heavy spring in this location will increase detent pressure, while a lighter spring will lower detent pressure.

In street racing, the only thing that matters is getting there first; there's no silver medal for 2nd place. Slam shifts may impress your friends, but they won't help you reach the finish line faster. The real trick to getting there first is matching your shift timing to your engine's power curve.

(http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1999/1999-07/gjul99p20a.jpg)
Figure 2

(http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1999/1999-07/gjul99p22a.jpg)
Figure 3




I found a few things confusing such as the part where the vehicle attains 510 mph. I have never been able to get mine going that fast so even faster is out of the question for me.


I did get the valve body disassembled and cleaned up. The plate has some wear at the check ball holes but I will dress those with a file or stone. Get her cleaned up and reassembled.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on July 21 2013, 10:52:18 AM

(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4047.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4047.jpg.html)Got them out and cleaned up.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4048.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4048.jpg.html)
Tried to keep them organized


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4021.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4021.jpg.html)


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4018.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4018.jpg.html)
I want to get a new plate but the budget sez not at this time. I will clean this one up and replace when the first pan drop for governor/vb adjustment occurs.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4079.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4079.jpg.html)


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4077.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4077.jpg.html)


Not sure if these numbers mean anything or are just mold numbers from the foundry. 


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4076.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4076.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4068.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4068.jpg.html)
the springs had a blue or a white look to them. not sure if that means anything.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4066.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4066.jpg.html)
Some of these sleeves were hard to get out. I was being very careful not to scratch or score the pieces and the bore.


The rest of the days pix.


http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/slideshow/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/slideshow/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body)


As always, I'm open for any questions but I surely am not a trans expert. I'm not even sure i'm a novice yet.
I'm having fun and hopefully this thing will get the car down the road when done.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on July 21 2013, 01:06:04 PM
http://transgoonline.com/200_4R_HD2Video.html (http://transgoonline.com/200_4R_HD2Video.html)


kind of a nifty video
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on August 02 2013, 10:19:18 PM
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200%204r%20build/IMAG4130.jpg)

Got some stuff by ups today. I hope it will tighten up the lower end.

I also stopped by Phoenix Transmission in Weatherford. I haven't been to their place since before they moved. They have a real nice setup. They hooked me up with a torque converter. I'm hoping to get her assembled and in the car this weekend. We will see.

More pix tomorrow.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on August 11 2013, 10:46:22 AM
Well, life got in the way of my get er done but I was able to juggle some parts and get the lower section down to .010-.012 clearance and I think that will work. Gonna soak some frictions and put the lower section into the case.


I also have a deal working for a tta valve body. I think this is the same or very similar to the BRF piece. Doesn't come with a governor but we will see how it works. Pix to follow when I get it into my possession and disassembled to compare. I bought several used governors from wittrans.com so modding one to be similar to the tta/brf is a grinding session away.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on September 07 2013, 11:57:55 AM

Well, I'm still at it.


I stopped out to see my friends at Phoenix Transmission In Weatherford. Yes, this is a shameless plug for them as they have always helped me out and this trip was no exception. I had heard they build there own converters and stopped in to see what they might be able to do for me and what it would cost. I came away with an exceptional deal on the converter we will be using. Big Praise for Greg and his crew.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4135.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4135.jpg.html)




I used to be able to just "get after it" no matter the weather. It has been hot and with the new job, my get er done hasn't been gettin er done. I did make a trip out to the garage the other night. We were able to get the trans up and mounted on the bench with a custom assembly and some c-clamps. My neighbor stopped by to enjoy the show. As I was drilling the holes in the bracket he asked why the drill was turning so slow and did i need to change the battery. I have learned over the years slow n steady is way better when drilling metal. It makes the cool, long curlies, and the drill bits last way longer. He also asked why I have two tool boxes. Lots of tools, right? I've always believed that if I can fix it I should buy the professional tools and do it. This makes for a lot of tools over the 25-30 or so years I have been working on stuff. Such a funny guy.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4256.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4256.jpg.html)
Clamped an old angle iron bed frame down and cut it to the length I wanted. I'm cheap and try not to throw good "stuff" away when I think I can use it later.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4255.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4255.jpg.html)
Essential tool for the hobbyist. The "homewrecker" as my dad dubbed it after he was cutting in for a fold up ironing board in his laundry room and cut both sides of the sheet rock(yes the laundry room side and the garage side). Got to be careful with power tools. Great for making large things into smaller things.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4258.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4258.jpg.html)
Long curlies as mentioned above. Drill bits still sharp ever though they are old. Faster is not always better. On a side note a tip I was given by an old machinest. I was inquiring about drilling a turbo oil drainback hole in the 4.1 block, and he told me use antifreeze as the coolant on the bit. just dip the bit in it. Crazy but it worked well. I used it to cut the threads too.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4253.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4253.jpg.html)
Years ago I bought this kent moore fixture off ebay. I couldnt figure out how to get it bolted on where it would work. It has what I think is the right part number but the piece the output shaft goes it is way far away from holding the output shaft in the right place. Oh well. I found some other tricks on the interwebz for that.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/th_VIDEO0008.jpg) (http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/VIDEO0008.mp4)
It involves a yoke. I bought this drive shaft years ago in the anticipation of going back to the 2004r. We will be replacing u joints any way so getting the yoke off was a torch and press away. Funny how the plastic stuff squirts out when the right amount of heat is applied. It's a vid just click on it.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4136.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4136.jpg.html)
I scored this for a dollar and 5 shipping off ebay. It is a $20 piece at the trans house. I couldn't pass it up.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4251.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4251.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4252.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4252.jpg.html)


I was also able to score this. It is purported to be a valve body from a turbo trans am. See the TA vb code there and the two pressure switches. I hope it works out. I will mod one of the low po governor to mimic a GN/TTA unit. Got a good deal on it too. Did i mention i'm cheap?


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4260.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4260.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4261.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4261.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4259.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4259.jpg.html)


Only One more easy monthly payment on the wife's dd truck. That will free up some coin just in time for the winter hour cut at work. up side is Ill have some time to get this thing back on the road. I put a new distributor into my daily. It had developed a stumble and then quit running. I studied up and it turns out the original (198k miles) has a plastic body and wears over time. When I got it out it rubbed the rotor as it was spun by hand. No wonder it quit running. Nothing like taking the top of the intake off to get to the distributor.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Tan%20Truck/Distributor%20swap/IMAG4242.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Tan%20Truck/Distributor%20swap/IMAG4242.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Tan%20Truck/Distributor%20swap/IMAG4238.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Tan%20Truck/Distributor%20swap/IMAG4238.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Tan%20Truck/Distributor%20swap/IMAG4240.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Tan%20Truck/Distributor%20swap/IMAG4240.jpg.html)


As with any distributor swap. Pay attention to where it is pointing when you pull it, dont move the engine, and put it back in exactly how it came out. This one busted right off when we tried it. I was pretty happy. It only cost a benjamin and Im rolling back n forth to work again. All new and no core charge. I searched up the brand on google and it got high reviews. Ill give it a thumbs up too.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on November 10 2013, 12:18:06 PM
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4460.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4460.jpg.html)
I downloaded the B&M shift improver kit instructions. I also have a copy of the transgo and CK. There are a different set of instructions in each. I stayed with conservative holes in the vb plate, as it is easier to make holes bigger. Making them smaller, not so much.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4453.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4453.jpg.html)
Put the check balls in then the gaskets and vb plate. Bolted on the Valve body.


Then set to work on the accumulators for 1-2 and 3-4


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4462.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4462.jpg.html)


We put a nut in there to space out the piston. Also used a 700r4 white spring for added tension to replace the broken stocker.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: SuperSix on November 13 2013, 07:27:57 PM
Nice - thanks for contributing!
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on December 14 2013, 03:00:41 PM

Well I'm still at it...


I got the innards back into the case. Measured the play on the sections. Did some dis-assembly, changed the selectives and reassembled to heck play again. Took a few tries but I was satisfied, this seems to be where the run of the mill rebuild differs. Just slappin it back together generally results in getting to do another overhaul in short order. I didnt want to so I am taking my time.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4284_zps198fefa1.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4284_zps198fefa1.jpg.html)
This is my low buck output shaft fixture. Not pretty but it got me where I wanted to go since the piece I bought didn't work out.


I have been reading up on shift improvement kit. There are apparently many schools of thought on what to do to make the shifts. I downloaded the instructions for the B&M kit, and the transgo kit, and obtained a copy of the ck performance kit as well as having a copy of the "bible" of 2004r assemble from ck performance. I also read up on different thoughts on the valve body subject over at hotrodders.com and turbobuick.com in the transmission section.


I kept it conservative in the drilling out of holes in the valve body plate. Since I am using an AA code valve body I wasn't sure how it will react to the modifications. According to the manual the AA code from a Cadillac has the lowest line pressures stock, so just by my use of the larger boost valves and pressure springs it should wake it up. We will see.


I got some different springs for the 1-2 and 3-4 accumulators. We are using a sonnax 2nd gear servo so this includes the 2-3 accumulator. I decided to keep the accumulators functional though blocking them can firm up shifts. This might need to be done if using a loose torque converter. I would have liked to put in a different valve body plate as this one is worn but budgetary constraints didn't allow it at this time. Maybe we will have one when I drop the pan for a fluid change and governor adjustment. I ordered a small scale and I guess they are waiting on the container as it said on amazon that it would be 17-29 days.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG0080.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG0080.jpg.html)
As you can see the cover on the right has a larger area than the stocker on the left.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG0081.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG0081.jpg.html)
And of course the piston is larger too.
When installing this with the new carbon band it required a bit of modification to the pin length to get it where we were told we would need it. This affects the 1-2 shift. Too much clearance and the band doesn't grab and you get a mushy shift. Too little clearance and the band burns and probably ruins the drum too.
We assembled it up with the band, and anchor pin in the case but without and of the seals. Then we measured the clearance between the piston and the snap in retainer ring. If you cant get the ring in you don't have enough clearance. You can grind the pin, and try it again. Too much clearance and you can hit the tip with the wire feed welder to build it up and snug up the clearance. Once you get the clearance you want you can Put the seals and springs in and put it all together. Then we used a yoke on the output shaft to turn the output. Then by applying air pressure to the exhaust hole in the pan rail it should lock down the output and you wont be able to turn it.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4462.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4462.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4464.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4464.jpg.html)


i was advised to get the spring up and out of the hole a bit(1/4") so we dropped a nut on the shaft and this was the result. We used a white spring sourced for a 700r4 to replace the broken stock one.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/tapatalk_1375743290438.png) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/tapatalk_1375743290438.png.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/tapatalk_1375743295209.png) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/tapatalk_1375743295209.png.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/tapatalk_1375743281719.png) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/tapatalk_1375743281719.png.html)


Here are the instructions I got for the 2-3 shift mod. I didnt do it but will if I feel the 2-3 shift isn't where I want it to be.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4369.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4369.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4368.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4368.jpg.html)
These are the pieces of the TV valve. When I assembled it with the stock springs it seemed "sluggish" so I sourced some stiffer springs in hopes it will work well. I cut one of the larger ones on advice posted by Lonnie Diers of ExtremeAutomat ics.com that he uses a 2.1" spring. I also put a stiffer spring in the deep end of the valve as that plunger didnt seem to return to it position with authority when released. With the new springs I felt the valve worked much better when run through its stroke.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4453.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/AA%20Valve%20body/IMAG4453.jpg.html)


we torqued the overhauled vb on there along with the accumulators.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4476_zps56ee85a5.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4476_zps56ee85a5.jpg.html)
We took apart the governor. Did some mods. We'll see how they work and mod some more.


(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4468_zpsaee7c24c.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4468_zpsaee7c24c.jpg.html)(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4469_zps233ca1f0.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4469_zps233ca1f0.jpg.html)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4475_zps560d9101.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20121413/IMAG4475_zps560d9101.jpg.html)
The 700r4 bottom feeding filter is metal so apparently it has a tendency to short out the vb pressure switch. I shrink wrapped the connector to try to avoid that happening. We also modified that black clip to try to limit the filter movement.
I have been reading up on tractor hydraulic oil. Lots of opinions. Id love to hear yours good or bad. Dex VI seems to be a favorite, but if I could afford that I wouldn't be overhauling my own trans now would I.


Again, I'm no expert but welcome any and all questions and comments.
And here's to a Merry Christmas  and Happy New Year to all.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on April 01 2014, 07:36:53 PM
Well we have a bit more progress. We have the 700r4 out and the 2004r in but still have to tighten up some fasteners and put the new ujoints in the used driveshaft I bought. We had to source some bell housing bolts and apparently the dipstick tube is different so I bought a used one(waiting for it to arrive).  I'm pretty stoked even though we missed the Buick club even last weekend.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: daveismissing on April 01 2014, 09:37:03 PM
Wow. Every time I look at this thread I feel dumber and dumber.
Way too many parts to keep track of...
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: Charlief1 on April 01 2014, 11:36:05 PM
Well we have a bit more progress. We have the 700r4 out and the 2004r in but still have to tighten up some fasteners and put the new ujoints in the used driveshaft I bought. We had to source some bell housing bolts and apparently the dipstick tube is different so I bought a used one(waiting for it to arrive).  I'm pretty stoked even though we missed the Buick club even last weekend.
If you'd said something and showed for the races, I would've given you a tube Rich. I've got 4 tubes and 2 trannies so I've got spare parts. :O
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on April 10 2014, 03:28:52 PM
Wanted to go in a bad way but my truck is sucking water and I think the intake gasket has given out. I ordered a set, but haven't arrived yet. I didn't think I wanted to try and drive it down n back to see if it could. The other truck is running my truck spare(wife's daily), tread separated so it needs a pair. I'm not flush with cash so all of these things get to the list and ordered accordingly. I'm sure yall understand.

Upside, dipstick n tube arrived yesterday. Packed well and ready to go in.
I also won a gauge setup on eBay.
http://m.ebay.com/itm?itemId=310915958318 (http://m.ebay.com/itm?itemId=310915958318)
Waiting for it to arrive.
My boy is learning why I got him talked into HVAC instead of working on cars.
Rain last weekend slowed the progress.
I also scored a pair of used short tires I hope to mount on a t wheel for a spare and hopefully short enough to fit in the well and be able to shut the trunk. We will see. 205-55/15 look much shorter than the 2157515.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on April 28 2014, 10:08:49 AM
I got the eBay trans gauge kit. I like it. Made in USA and has qwik connect to swap gauges. I got the new u joints pressed in and drive shaft into the car. My son was under tightening bell housing and cross member bolts so I was adding fluid without the ds and he started yelling to stop as it ran out the tail without the drive shaft as I was finishing up the 2nd gallon. New dipstick and tube is in. Also dropped some coin on wood for my flat trailer. We oiled the boards down. Not sure if that will help but the wood soaked it uo so I guess it won't hurt.

My mil gave the oldest daughter a car but it needs intake gaskets so I need the trailer to go get it and bring it to the house. Just one more to the list of to-dos.

I dropped my gravely battery into the car and fired it up. Git a knock or tap but I'm pretty sure it is in the engine. It was a quart low on oil so I topped it off. I think it is a sticky lifter but time will tell. I got just under 100psi at idle in the trans. And at idle the thing jumps to about 270psi when I pulled the tv out at idle. Then the battery dies and it got dark so we cleaned up and made plans for a new truck battery so I can have my car battery back.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: SuperSix on April 28 2014, 12:27:32 PM
Keep at it!
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on April 28 2014, 10:21:36 PM
(https://s25.postimg.cc/b0qys5ypn/IMAG4958.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/b0qys5ypn/)My cool new trans pressure gauge setup. Works very well.

We crunk it up again tonight. I am stoked. We have pressures. Though I think we need a stiffer pressure relief valve and it will be included in the next build.
The tapping has subsided to nothing so I'm thinking sticky lifter that freed up.

(https://s25.postimg.org/dlwjfsyez/IMAG4870plateedit_1.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dlwjfsyez/)

We ran it through the gears and took some pressure readings at no and full tv at 1000rpm as the manual asked. They seemed good so I ran it through the gears on the jack stands. Than we ser it on the ground and I ran it back and forth in the drive way. We have it parked in so I didn't get t take it out. I did do a burn out but the wife was NOT amused but my boy thought it quite cool. I hope this works out. I am VERY excited and ready to hit the track with it.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on April 30 2014, 08:24:04 PM
We have partial success. It didn't shift at first. So I kept driving around and got it to go to second , then third. I drve it around, starting and stopping. It seemed to get better as we drove. I thought it was doing good so we took it out on the freeway. The overdrive as well as the rest of the shifts are crisp. When it locked the converter it felt like anothe gear. I am pretty pleased. We will do some adjustments and get back. But as of now it is mobile.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: SuperSix on May 01 2014, 10:04:45 AM
Whooo!
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on May 01 2014, 10:10:34 AM
It kind of hangs in first. I took the heavy spring out of the small weight side of gov and replaced it with the light spring from the heavy weight side. I left the heavy without a spring like a brf has. This appears not to work as it doesn't shift from 1-2 until 25-35 mph at light throttle. I will drop pan and put light spring back in heavy weight side. I think I will leave the light spring in light weight side and probably pin the heavy side like I did the light side.
Where does the computer get a signal of how fast car is travelling? I have an autoxray scan tool but its mph coincides with the speedo so I'm not sure either is accurate.
If I didn't have this job everyday I could make a lot more progress.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: daveismissing on May 01 2014, 09:27:04 PM
VSS behind the speedo , 2000 pulses/mile or was that 200...
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on May 05 2014, 07:35:48 PM
Well, that explains why the Speedo and scan tool match up. Got the pan off, modded governor back to stock. Still on the jack stands. Volleyball tonight. Will try to get it out for a test tommorrow. I did run it through the gears on the stands and it seemed to shift sooner. We'll know as soon as I make time for a test drive. At least softball season is over.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: SuperSix on May 06 2014, 03:33:53 PM
Keep it up!
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on May 07 2014, 10:04:36 AM
Well, we have what I think is success. Put the gov back to AA stock and it is smooth as silk til you tickle the go pedal. Then I'm not sure as it is fairly traction limited, though going to third, od and the converter lock up is firm. I an stoked. Gotta get my stickies mounted on my new(bought them used about ten years ago ) drag star wheels and a trip to the track to see where full throttle shifts are. Very excited.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: Charlief1 on May 07 2014, 09:52:17 PM
Give me a call when you decide to go to the track Rich. I might be able to join you. :cheers:
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on May 10 2014, 03:48:26 PM
That would be great. Ill let ya know.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on June 22 2014, 04:10:13 PM
Well, still haven't made it out to the track. I did get the car out yesterday and made a couple blasts with gauge on the trans.

I am pretty pleased with the pressures. It seems to hold 120-150 at light to medium throttle through the gears. At full throttle it stays between 240 and 270 psi. With a good blast from a light it stayed steady at 270 through the shift to third and I let out. I really need a trip to the track. It has never shifted this well. I can't believe I waited so long to build one. The ck book is required reading imo. I didn't do everything it suggested but as has been pointed out, it is one man's ideas.

I can't emphasize enough the help from ttype6, Don Wang, David Husek, Jake Shoemaker, Bruce , Vince Janis, Lonnie Diers , Chris K and several others who post at turbobuick.com in the trans section. I read through all 600 pages  and took a lot of notes.  I am also thankful to the engineer at sonnax who answered questions about their products and the 2004r.

We will see how long this one will stay together. I hope to have enough budget for the next one to have a billet shaft forward so I can dual fees the direct clutches.

If you have any questions let me know.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: SuperSix on June 23 2014, 10:41:30 AM
What did you use to measure temps? Where did you mount it?
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on June 23 2014, 01:43:38 PM
I am measureing trans pressures. I haven't looked into temps yet. I think I would want it in the pan or one of the cooler lines if I did. Maybe on the drain bung on one of those cast pans.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: Steve Wood on June 23 2014, 08:11:15 PM
the best place to mount a tranny temp sensor is in the outlet line to the cooler as that point shows you how hot the fluid got whereas the pan shows you the "cooled" temp.....the easiest point may be the pan, though :)
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: Charlief1 on June 23 2014, 10:05:15 PM
the best place to mount a tranny temp sensor is in the outlet line to the cooler as that point shows you how hot the fluid got whereas the pan shows you the "cooled" temp.....the easiest point may be the pan, though :)
The pan catches all the fluid after it goes through the tranny though Steve. The outlet only tests after it goes through the pump.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 01 2015, 09:11:47 AM
Rich, thanks for taking the time to do this. It's a great pictorial for the first timer/learner and shows what their up against. I could have swore Jakeshoe had something similar but I can't find it. I remember it having some good pics as well, disassembly ect... I think it got cut a little short for some reason though.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on March 01 2015, 10:10:13 AM
http://www.gnttype.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9724 (http://www.gnttype.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9724)

Yep, Jake is a good guy. He "got into it" with some of them z28 guys, as out lined in the linked thread. He stopped doing 2004r  but now his web site has them again. I think he stopped selling parts to the public. Probably not enough money in it and he is busy building 4L80e units that have better margin, but who knows.

Either way, I still think if you have a place to drop the trans, a clean work area for dis assembly and assembly and hand tools your can overhaul a 2004r.

You will need a dial indicator and a way to mount it to check clearances. it is much easier with a low/reverse removal/install tool, that can be had off ebay if you keep your eye on it(look for a principles of operation manual while you are hunting). I have a 12 ton press, you might want to invest in one or rig something up with some allthread, washers n nuts or get a clutch compressor tool of some kind. An output shaft support was accomplished with the ds yoke and some wire on mine.

If you are heading as deep as the rev I would plan on a full over haul. This might require some bushing drivers but I used sockets and pieces of pipe and stuff I have collected through the years pressing things in and out.

Let us know if you have questions. Happy to help.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 01 2015, 11:35:18 AM
I think I'm going to give it a shot Rich. I picked up a BRF from a good guy up here. It needs a rebuild for sure, but it's a good stock BRF core. Just pulled the pan this morning and checking what I can visually. Looks ok, BR3 painted on the VB 694 servo ect. Would like to build this to a good comp trans. I have Chris's billet servo, and his competition shift kit. I picked up his rebuild manual last year thinking I may do this. Do you think I can can get by with just his manual? Haven't decided on LU or NLU yet but probably go NLU. No other hard parts yet.
I have lots of tools but I don't have the "specialty" tools you mention, so I'll either buy or borrow in times of need. One thing I did notice this morning is when I try to turn the pump stator spline with the trans on the engine stand it won't budge, but the smaller input shaft will turn freely. Is this normal do you know? I would have thought it would turn freely as well. Hope I'm calling these parts by their correct name  :icon_lol:


Oh, and thanks for the link to Jake  :cheers:
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: Scoobum on March 01 2015, 11:55:03 AM
Jim, Princess Auto may have some or all of the tools Rich has mentioned. I picked up a magnetic dial indicator real cheap from them...and their catalogue is online.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 01 2015, 12:21:35 PM
Cool Brad, thanks. I bought my line pressure gauge from them. They were decent and made it up for me on the spot.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on March 01 2015, 12:35:49 PM
Stator support dose not move. It is bolted to the inside of the pump and holds the stator in the torque converter stationary so the stator can direct the fluid around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5G2zQ_3xTc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5G2zQ_3xTc)






http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/transmission/32608-200-4r-tips-tricks-saved-tools-i-learned.html (http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/transmission/32608-200-4r-tips-tricks-saved-tools-i-learned.html)

Ive heard of others using #10 wire with an L bent in the end to get the low/rev out.

http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic3814.html (http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic3814.html)

http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4631.0 (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4631.0)
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 01 2015, 12:59:53 PM
OK I see, thanks Rich. I'm pretty green but not retarded, but don't ask my wife.  :icon_lol:  So I'll be taking this real slow.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on March 01 2015, 01:07:37 PM
(http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/download/file.php?id=2352)

you can see the stator support on the rear of the pump held by the three button head fasteners. ck recommended replacing these with regular bolts and lock tighting them in.

Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on March 01 2015, 01:08:07 PM



(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/texastandgransport/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4091.jpg) (http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/media/Transmission/200-4r%20Build%20090213/IMAG4091.jpg.html)

No silly questions. If you know you wouldn't ask.

Remember these threads are what one person does, just like the ck manual is one mans opinions. No one way to get it done. Lots of directions you could go.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 01 2015, 03:08:39 PM
Ok Rich thanks for your help.
I've removed the LU solenoid and wiring, 1-2 accumulator housing, piston and spring. Removed governor, VB and check balls (11) Not sure if 11 is what I should have but that's all I see for now. Haven't removed the center support bolts or the servo yet. Starting to get a little overwhelmed with the VB check balls and their location. I took pics but kinda hard to see where they were as some were still submerged in fluid.


Anyway all looks ok so far no missing parts or bolts, and the accumulator springs are in good shape. The plate had very little wear on it, can barley catch a finger nail on the worn area. Only issue so far is the 3-4 accumulator piston in the case seems like it's seized in there as it doesn't seem to want to depart from home. 
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on March 01 2015, 03:19:59 PM
Ok Rich thanks for your help.
I've removed the LU solenoid and wiring, 1-2 accumulator housing, piston and spring. Removed governor, VB and check balls (11) Not sure if 11 is what I should have but that's all I see for now. Haven't removed the center support bolts or the servo yet. Starting to get a little overwhelmed with the VB check balls and their location. I took pics but kinda hard to see where they were as some were still submerged in fluid.


Anyway all looks ok so far no missing parts or bolts, and the accumulator springs are in good shape. The plate had very little wear on it, can barley catch a finger nail on the worn area. Only issue so far is the 3-4 accumulator piston in the case seems like it's seized in there as it doesn't seem to want to depart from home. 
Don't worry about the ball locations for now. Plenty of pix and diagrams to get them back where they belong.

Set your torque converter on the bench and stack the pieces on it as you take it apart.

Ill have to look but I'm sure you can use some compressed air to "shoot" it out.

(https://s25.postimg.org/68tpbboe3/ballt004.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/68tpbboe3/)


(https://s25.postimg.org/c8hgez96j/ballt020_small.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/c8hgez96j/)


(https://s25.postimg.org/m4vzme517/200.gif) (https://postimg.org/image/m4vzme517/)
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 01 2015, 03:51:49 PM
Will try to get some pics up
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 01 2015, 05:29:23 PM
I got 3 ckeck balls out of the VB itself and 8 out of the case. I guess there's one deep in the case that's in a capsule Does that one need to come out?
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on March 01 2015, 06:15:48 PM
I didnt pull any of the capsuled stuff. I doused it down with brake cleaner and dried it with compressed air and oiled it to keep it moving in the mean time.

If you feel the need to remove them the grumpys perfomance link has some pix on how he did it.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 01 2015, 06:30:36 PM
If it's not necessary to remove I won't bother. I got the 3-4 accumulator piston out, just a little tap got it moving.


Rich did you get your case hot tanked?
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on March 01 2015, 06:55:13 PM
I was gonna and even found a shop that said he'd run it through for $25. But I just ended up buying a couple cans of brake cleaner and did it myself instead. I'm more of a "how fast will it run" than a "how nice can it look" kinda guy.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 01 2015, 08:09:46 PM
I was only considering hot tanking the case for function and making sure the circuits of the VB were free of old debris ect...
If a few cans of brake clean and compressed air will do, then I'm good.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on March 22 2015, 10:55:52 PM
Yep, can't be TOO clean when it comes to auto trans assembly.

Also an update. Trans still shifts incredibly great. Better than any the dealers built. Every time I drive it I am amazed. I still can't believe it is going strong. I can't help but feel gun shy after all the bad builds I went through when it was new.

A gtg in Temple is coming up and if I can swing a new or at least newer pair of rear tires it shall make some passes. The ones on there now are a pair of Hoosier 255/60-15 on stock T wheels that I bought from Montgomery Ward and as many may know they went under a few years back.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: gusszgs on March 25 2015, 04:07:17 PM
I've got 255/60 MT DR's for the T and they work great plus the fit is nice. I run Hoosier QT Pros on the GS. 1.64 60ft off the foot brake
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: bryes on March 28 2015, 09:19:50 PM
Glad to hear that your trans is still going well TexasT, I have mine out right now and am going through it, so this thread is a nice resource!
Title: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: larrym on March 29 2015, 12:20:25 PM
If you are going thru it yourself don't put it back together without a billet band anchor it's the part that failed on my DYI build.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: bryes on March 29 2015, 06:06:46 PM
Thanks for the advice. I've started a new thread (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?board=10.0) here that greater details my situation, I'll keep that billet band anchor in mind.
Title: Re: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: TexasT on March 31 2015, 09:06:48 PM
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/200-4r.htm (http://www.transmissioncenter.net/200-4r.htm)

They have the billet pin and the carbon band.
But as always I put in a plug for David Husek at Turbobuickperf ormance.com He will require a call but can get you anything you want or need and provide excellent service after the sale.
Title: Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two
Post by: larrym on March 31 2015, 09:18:29 PM
X2 on Dave good guy.
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