IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: daveismissing on May 17 2012, 08:39:13 AM
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Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.
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OMG !! We are screwed :chin:
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It is going to be fun trying to put all these worms back into the can you just opened...
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lol
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Informative thread so far.
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(http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u69/X-Fi_Pimp_0.png)
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these are probably the same type of responses that car manufacturers got when going to EFI.
Carburetors work WTF do we need fuel injection for?????
Big cubic inches make power WTF do we need turbos for????
And here we are playing with both these at the time stupid ideas.
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these are probably the same type of responses that car manufacturers got when going to EFI.
well think about this.. How many guys with a XFI systems can tune there own car ?? I see a lot of guys having "tuners" do there set ups. I also think that once you are goin FAST you could prob have a better tune with an XFI.. Chips like TT have many adjustments so most can "tune" their own cars.. Just try different settings. There are only so many to try. Me I am lazy, old :chin: an won't count on other people to tune my car.
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Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.
The stock ecu does not provide immunity to interference from MSD boxes.
The timing on the stock ecu is is fixed by gear changes and once you go WOT it is not regulated by boost. I e you can't put in 25 degrees at 5 psi boost, 23 at 1o psi boost, etc. Even with the trans pro you can do it against rpm but not boost.
The processor speed is 8mhz compared to 24 mhz. The O2 sensor gain on the WB chips is fixed, xfi its variable, and the correction limits are fixed on the wb chip , xfi its not.
XFI has self learning with variable gain, individual timing and fuel control.
boost, control, timed boost control, 2 step, 3 step, nitrous control, 4 inputs, 4 aux outputs, 8 analog inputs, datalogging at 20 fps for 24 items. 5 bar map input.
Wideband o2 inhibit delay to reduce spikes on wb correction on gear changes.
User defined coldstart, after start enrichment, cranking fuel, any injector size , high impedance and low impedance.
The cost is about $2000 by the time your done is the con, and the time you need to tune all this in..
Many more features Im just starting out...
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Thanks
Can it self learn to the point of making a street friendly good gas mileage daily driver?
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Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.
Hey Dave,
Although I'm not an expert with XFI, nor do I even have a full understanding on how it operates, I can comment on the cost factor vs ECM set up.
While attending at the Turbobuick Nats' / Richard Clarks......I did speak with Cal Hartline about the cost factor. Cal stated that compared to the ECM set up, with all the costs of all the components req'd......that the XFI is very reasonably priced.
Think about it for a moment.....if we add up the cost of a 1) ScanMaster 2) WideBand 3) PowerLogger 4) Electronic FP Gauge & Transducer 5) MAF Sensor & whatever else is req'd......my best guess is that it would total around $1,500. +/- ?
This is only a couple of hundred less than the price of an XFI system.
I did hear him say that for the faint of heart, or people that do not have a laptop...... he has it set up as self learning right outa the box. Just gotta drive around with it for a while and it will adjust automatically.
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To me it all boils down to the car and driver. A very basic setup from 20 years ago can get into the 11's without troubles with general knowledge on boost, fuel, timing, suspension and how to turn the ignition key. But today most want gadgets to make it easy and not use your brain. I have to tune and set up a bone stock GN on Tues so as I said above many still can't do it. I agree a ecm with all the add-ons vs xfi come close in cost but they both have the same problem that most can't tune. I don't know if it's just being lazy or afraid. In the end the faster you go the more you need finer tuning. My experience is this point is low 10's and planning to visit the 9's. If you want high 11's any chip and bluetops will get the job done. :icon_eyes:
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seems to me that if one wants to get his money's worth out of an aftermarket system, then one must not only be able to learn how to use it, he must have access to a dyno. Otherwise, the cost of paying for dyno time and a tuner is going to add a lot to the cost and that is never mentioned by these guys selling these things.
And, if one gets it to run on the street as well as the factory ecm, I suspect it will not pass a comprehensive emissions test if that has to be performed annually.
I still laugh when I remember the renowned tuner that was blasting the use of an ME chip on a particular TSM car when he could easily get two more tenths with an XFI. It took many months before he got the car to go faster than it was with the chip. There have been several guys run in the mid 8's with a chip. Now, I agree with Ed, if I were building a race car that running in the Nines, or quicker, I would go aftermarket if for no other reason than more flexibility with timing and individual cylinder tuning. But, then with a race car, I would be looking for hundreths, not tenths, , and absolute repeatibility run to run.
On the track, a race car runs a very narrow rpm band and launches at very high rpm. This makes the basic tuning relatively simple and I suspect most of the gains will come in low gear trying to get it to launch optimally and consistently.
On the street, one is concerned with a much broader rpm band and many degrees of throttle rather than foot on the floor. Gas mileage, emissions, cold weather performance, hot weather performance, variation in gasoline quality, etc. all have to be accounted for. It is hard to beat a modern chip/stock ecm when it comes to street performance. Self learning certainly helps, but, sometimes it seems to work better than others. There is enuf variation between cars and combos to confound the issue.
And, echoing Ed and Dan, how many people will put in the time and effort to learn the hows and whys of tuning? Think how many people buy a programmable chip and cannot even read the instructions to program the simplest of functions even when there may only be six things that can be adjusted. Most people that are buying these things today are not car guys. They don't understand timing, fueling, basic electrical systems, etc. How many posts do we see that go something like, "My car won't start; what should I buy?" Vendors love them because they can sell them magical parts to solve their problems.
On the other hand, I keep looking at modern aftermarket systems to install on my Challenger...b ut, when I look at the prices, the calculator in my head keeps saying, "Buy a modern hemi and drop it in there...."
No matter what your flavor, nothing beats fuel injection on the street :)
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seems to me that if one wants to get his money's worth out of an aftermarket system, then one must not only be able to learn how to use it, he must have access to a dyno. Otherwise, the cost of paying for dyno time and a tuner is going to add a lot to the cost and that is never mentioned by these guys selling these things.
And, if one gets it to run on the street as well as the factory ecm, I suspect it will not pass a comprehensive emissions test if that has to be performed annually.
I still laugh when I remember the renowned tuner that was blasting the use of an ME chip on a particular TSM car when he could easily get two more tenths with an XFI. It took many months before he got the car to go faster than it was with the chip. There have been several guys run in the mid 8's with a chip. Now, I agree with Ed, if I were building a race car that running in the Nines, or quicker, I would go aftermarket if for no other reason than more flexibility with timing and individual cylinder tuning. But, then with a race car, I would be looking for hundreths, not tenths, , and absolute repeatibility run to run.
On the track, a race car runs a very narrow rpm band and launches at very high rpm. This makes the basic tuning relatively simple and I suspect most of the gains will come in low gear trying to get it to launch optimally and consistently.
On the street, one is concerned with a much broader rpm band and many degrees of throttle rather than foot on the floor. Gas mileage, emissions, cold weather performance, hot weather performance, variation in gasoline quality, etc. all have to be accounted for. It is hard to beat a modern chip/stock ecm when it comes to street performance. Self learning certainly helps, but, sometimes it seems to work better than others. There is enuf variation between cars and combos to confound the issue.
And, echoing Ed and Dan, how many people will put in the time and effort to learn the hows and whys of tuning? Think how many people buy a programmable chip and cannot even read the instructions to program the simplest of functions even when there may only be six things that can be adjusted. Most people that are buying these things today are not car guys. They don't understand timing, fueling, basic electrical systems, etc. How many posts do we see that go something like, "My car won't start; what should I buy?" Vendors love them because they can sell them magical parts to solve their problems.
On the other hand, I keep looking at modern aftermarket systems to install on my Challenger...b ut, when I look at the prices, the calculator in my head keeps saying, "Buy a modern hemi and drop it in there...."
No matter what your flavor, nothing beats fuel injection on the street :)
Oh Boy!!! Give this man a cigar!!!! Man-oh-man did you hit the nail square on every point!!!!!!
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Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.
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I did hear him say that for the faint of heart, or people that do not have a laptop...... he has it set up as self learning right outa the box. Just gotta drive around with it for a while and it will adjust automatically.
I was there too, and he CRINGED when he said that- so reading between the lines says it ain't so great.
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Thanks
Can it self learn to the point of making a street friendly good gas mileage daily driver?
I dont see why not, you can put any AF ratio in and timing for cruising speed. Self learn does not come in effect for cranking fuel, accel enrichment, or afterstart, you are on your own for those.
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ANd i forgot to mention traction control , so you don;t have to worry about wiping the car out at top end.....becasu e the spinning is controlled, not violent.
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Turbo tweak chip with Razor's Alky is a no brainer for a street car.
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An external engine management system (Fast,BS3) is much better than running the stock abbaccus,even with all the add ons.Think of a 12" dia circle and points at every .5" distance around the circle.Now draw lines through every point tangent to the circle.This represents the control resolution of the stock computer.This also represents stock control resolution with respect to all six cylinders.Draw six circles just like the first and place points on all the circles .25" distance around each of the circles.The single circle represents "abbaccus control" using the stock computer (8 bit motorola 68000) for all 6 cylinder air/fuel control events.The 6 circles represent the air/fuel control events for six one cylinder engines operating in firing sequence from a Fast.This sequential individual control provides specific air fuel tables for each cylinder.Take the 6 circles and lay them all on top of each other and this illustrates the control resolution of the Fast compared to the stock computer.The Fast is much quicker than the stock computer.Just the fact that individual,sequential, greater resolution air fuel tables can be managed can keep a car further away from catastrophic destruction via detonation if crazy notions are avoided.Other benefits result from a fast once you get going with it.An external engine management system is expensive,but engine rebuilds are much more expensive.
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Actually you could use the XFI as a safety with alky, and a pressure switch, so that the AF ratio will only be modified when the alky is present,,,,,,,,,,,,top that one top speed :chin:
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Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.
The stock ecu does not provide immunity to interference from MSD boxes.
Thanks for getting engaged here Norbs, its all interesting and I'll have to study it all.
Did this (the above) turn out to be the ECM or all that Moates stuff?
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Forgot to mention there are a few gutsy/crazy racers running stock short blocks (no forged crank,no caps,no girdle) and surviving in competition with external engine management systems.Contro l of firing parameters saves engines (asside from fatique).
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An external engine management system (Fast,BS3) is much better than running the stock abbaccus,even with all the add ons.Think of a 12" dia circle and points at every .5" distance around the circle.Now draw lines through every point tangent to the circle.This represents the control resolution of the stock computer.This also represents stock control resolution with respect to all six cylinders.Draw six circles just like the first and place points on all the circles .25" distance around each of the circles.The single circle represents "abbaccus control" using the stock computer (8 bit motorola 68000) for all 6 cylinder air/fuel control events.The 6 circles represent the air/fuel control events for six one cylinder engines operating in firing sequence from a Fast.This sequential individual control provides specific air fuel tables for each cylinder.Take the 6 circles and lay them all on top of each other and this illustrates the control resolution of the Fast compared to the stock computer.The Fast is much quicker than the stock computer.Just the fact that individual,sequential, greater resolution air fuel tables can be managed can keep a car further away from catastrophic destruction via detonation if crazy notions are avoided.Other benefits result from a fast once you get going with it.An external engine management system is expensive,but engine rebuilds are much more expensive.
So with a XFI you would put Tom Champion out of business and all the engine builders too.. Just kidding. Point is I've seen just as many if not more blown up Buicks and or melted heads with aftermarket units. I don't blame the electronics, it's the end users lack of knowledge who thinks it's will save him motors and money in the long run. You need to know how to tune or hire someone who can. Seems like XFI, Bigstuff, Motec and others need to hire pros like Cal Hartline, Billy Anderson, Dale Cherry, Jack Cotton and few others to get all the benefits out of a system that the average Joe can't or won't learn how too. I've seen them pop a few over the years also.
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Forgot to mention there are a few gutsy/crazy racers running stock short blocks (no forged crank,no caps,no girdle) and surviving in competition with external engine management systems.Contro l of firing parameters saves engines (asside from fatique).
Plenty in the 10's on a chip too. A good tune without detonation is more important with either a chip or fast.
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In theory, one cannot argue. In reality, there are plenty of actual examples that the extra resolution cannot be measured. :)
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with any external ECM management there is a huge learning curve. with the Trans Pro which is a piggy back system it took months going back and forth with bob to get a basic setup. Each car with different combinations of inj...turbo..c onvertor etc takes time to set up... just t get a base driving tune...the to get WOT is another issue...if I had not cracked the block with my base tune @ 11.599 @ 119.91 with a crappy 1.834 60' with a lifted head the car should have been well into the 10's...again its all in the tune
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This has been a great thread.This discussion could go round and round for a long time.If I could just suggest that an external management system does provide more control if the user learns how to use it.The tune is the essence of everything that goes on regardless of the system being used.Another factor is that the stock electronic spark control system is not adequate for the power levels that are being produced.We can't hear the onset of knock while making 500 rwhp and it happens so fast.The stock esc system algorithm is not able to separate early inaudible knock from background noise,nor is it fast enough to cope at higher power levels.There is a system available to deal with inaudible knock,but its not cheap.Engine rebuilds are about 3 to 4 times as expensive.
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Ah, someone that agrees with my pet peeve....how many times have people insisted they don't need to monitor detonation/timing retard because they don't hear any? About three times a month, I would guess. Given the cylinder pressures that a forced aspiration car incurs, detonation, when it occurs, is far more damaging than on a normally aspirated engine...and given the pressures, it occurs virtually instantaneousl y.
Still, on a street car, aftermarket management systems will seldom provide improved performance, cost more to have tuned, and probably will not make it past a comprehensive emissions test.
On the track, there are some features that are really nice, but, those might provide more safety if the tune is conservative. On the other hand, Walt Judy has demonstrated that the factory ecm can be competitive with cars in TSM, and several others have gone faster than 8.5 in older classes. In the hands of an experienced tuner, changes can certainly be made faster without having to burn a new chip.
Given the number of blown engines that have comes from aftermarket systems, I suspect all the great features in the world cannot trump a tuner that has greater ambitions than his platform can cash in.
As I stated previously, outside of the launch, tuning a race car is more simple than an all purpose street car, imo :). When you get a hyperactive mind like Norb's, there is no system that will ever be complex enuf to fit his needs :D
On a side note, I always wanted to try the Safeguard system to see how it worked. :)
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I'm in the process of getting a JS Safeguard (Vampire).
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Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.
The stock ecu does not provide immunity to interference from MSD boxes.
Thanks for getting engaged here Norbs, its all interesting and I'll have to study it all.
Did this (the above) turn out to be the ECM or all that Moates stuff?
Dave, the Moates stuff would corrupt the bin file randomly after powering the ecu down. You could re-flash it and it would be fine for a day, a week,,,,,, then all of a sudden a ecu code pops up bad eeprom. So i had to scrap that plan. Using the chip from Eric it ran great, however at high rpm/boost the mass air signal and during accel would go erratic, and start throwing timing all over the place, knock etc. Then I decided to go SD mode to eliminate the MAF out of the equation, it worked much better, however it still would start doing weird things and I could not get consistant results to hold the timing or the closed loop fuel control steady at WOT. Put the fast in and timing was rock solid, and great fuel control....... .......
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Steve,I suspect a major software rewrite within the abbaccus software set is required to run Safeguard (like turn off ESC).I'm not saying it can't happen.A lot of consideration would be required.This is a major reason for my enthusiasm of external engine management.
On another note I would show up at Steve Y's house after work every once in a while and Walt's car might be mentioned.I know he helped Walt a lot.
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This is a typical turbo buick owner of today. He goes to the track and runs 14’s and is pissed. Hits the bulletin boards and is told about tuning but ignores the info. He goes out and buys 4” downpipe, 1200hp turbo, triple valve springs, double pumper, 400 amp alternator, 55lb injectors and Reds chip and ready for the 10’s. But to his surprise he only made it to the 13’s. He is told on the board that his setup can handle 30lbs of boost with alky so that’s his next buy. After not listening on how to tune for alky he blows up the motor and blames all the part manufacturers. Now he looks deeper in this tune thing and sees XFI is better then the rhythm method of birth control. He spends a few thousand on it and gets a startup program and goes to the track. Still pissed he is in the 13’s calls go out to supertuners. Being cheap as most buick guys he won’t pay. He gets a few friends who read some xfi tuning secrets and hit the track. Now he runs 13.0 but flames are shooting out the side of the head and the track is pissed for the oil down. Now the peanut gallery chimes in and says buick sucks and now he drop in a bulletproof LSX :icon_eyes: :icon_lol:
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The stock ecm is a work of art for its time, but when you get into a really sensitive tune it does not have the flexibility of the after market units. Here is some more info on the XFI. The XFI does not fix mistakes programmed in by the user, that is why things go wrong, it also needs room for improvement, you can check out my improvement list.
http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/fast-xfi-2-0-faqs-5761.html (http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/fast-xfi-2-0-faqs-5761.html)
Improvement list or wish list
http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/fast-xfi-updated-suggested-improvement-list-7005.html (http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/fast-xfi-updated-suggested-improvement-list-7005.html)
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This is a typical turbo buick owner of today. He goes to the track and runs 14’s and is pissed. Hits the bulletin boards and is told about tuning but ignores the info. He goes out and buys 4” downpipe, 1200hp turbo, triple valve springs, double pumper, 400 amp alternator, 55lb injectors and Reds chip and ready for the 10’s. But to his surprise he only made it to the 13’s. He is told on the board that his setup can handle 30lbs of boost with alky so that’s his next buy. After not listening on how to tune for alky he blows up the motor and blames all the part manufacturers. Now he looks deeper in this tune thing and sees XFI is better then the rhythm method of birth control. He spends a few thousand on it and gets a startup program and goes to the track. Still pissed he is in the 13’s calls go out to supertuners. Being cheap as most buick guys he won’t pay. He gets a few friends who read some xfi tuning secrets and hit the track. Now he runs 13.0 but flames are shooting out the side of the head and the track is pissed for the oil down. Now the peanut gallery chimes in and says buick sucks and now he drop in a bulletproof LSX :icon_eyes: :icon_lol:
That is so funny, but true, with the wrong numbers entered it could be all over quick
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Steve,I suspect a major software rewrite within the abbaccus software set is required to run Safeguard (like turn off ESC).I'm not saying it can't happen.A lot of consideration would be required.This is a major reason for my enthusiasm of external engine management.
On another note I would show up at Steve Y's house after work every once in a while and Walt's car might be mentioned.I know he helped Walt a lot.
The guy that developed the safeguard system said it worked without any mods and tried to get me to try one several times but I never did as I was not racing. Seemed like a really nice guy.
Steve was/is still burning chips for Walt as far as I know. Been a few months since we discussed it. Right now he is trying to get his new water well to pump and take pictures of the bear/cub that is hanging around his cabin :)
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I guess I am at the point where I just want to get in my car and drive it and not have to fiddle with things all of the time.
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Thos
Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.
The stock ecu does not provide immunity to interference from MSD boxes.
Thanks for getting engaged here Norbs, its all interesting and I'll have to study it all.
Did this (the above) turn out to be the ECM or all that Moates stuff?
Dave, the Moates stuff would corrupt the bin file randomly after powering the ecu down. You could re-flash it and it would be fine for a day, a week,,,,,, then all of a sudden a ecu code pops up bad eeprom. So i had to scrap that plan. Using the chip from Eric it ran great, however at high rpm/boost the mass air signal and during accel would go erratic, and start throwing timing all over the place, knock etc. Then I decided to go SD mode to eliminate the MAF out of the equation, it worked much better, however it still would start doing weird things and I could not get consistant results to hold the timing or the closed loop fuel control steady at WOT. Put the fast in and timing was rock solid, and great fuel control....... .......
Those problems may have had more to do with the chip than the ECM. I haven't seen such issues, and still run the stock ECM. However mine differs in that I am running the Tranlsator Pro. I have great bins for either MAF or SD. Running SD now.
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I ran the pro as well, and it would randomly take the timing to 34 degrees under boost,,,,,,,,,,,but only once in a while. I could not risk the motor so I had to abort everything stock ecu related, I think everything was EMI related.
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This is a typical turbo buick owner of today. He goes to the track and runs 14’s and is pissed. Hits the bulletin boards and is told about tuning but ignores the info. He goes out and buys 4” downpipe, 1200hp turbo, triple valve springs, double pumper, 400 amp alternator, 55lb injectors and Reds chip and ready for the 10’s. But to his surprise he only made it to the 13’s. He is told on the board that his setup can handle 30lbs of boost with alky so that’s his next buy. After not listening on how to tune for alky he blows up the motor and blames all the part manufacturers. Now he looks deeper in this tune thing and sees XFI is better then the rhythm method of birth control. He spends a few thousand on it and gets a startup program and goes to the track. Still pissed he is in the 13’s calls go out to supertuners. Being cheap as most buick guys he won’t pay. He gets a few friends who read some xfi tuning secrets and hit the track. Now he runs 13.0 but flames are shooting out the side of the head and the track is pissed for the oil down. Now the peanut gallery chimes in and says buick sucks and now he drop in a bulletproof LSX :icon_eyes: :icon_lol:
Hey! I haven't oiled down a track yet...
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Maybe not, but one thing is for sure, you were a lot more fun when you were young and dumb :D
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I think everything was EMI related.
It usually always comes back to that when there are random unexplainable timing issues (EMI, RFI, Bad grounds).
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How ma
This is a typical turbo buick owner of today. He goes to the track and runs 14’s and is pissed. Hits the bulletin boards and is told about tuning but ignores the info. He goes out and buys 4” downpipe, 1200hp turbo, triple valve springs, double pumper, 400 amp alternator, 55lb injectors and Reds chip and ready for the 10’s. But to his surprise he only made it to the 13’s. He is told on the board that his setup can handle 30lbs of boost with alky so that’s his next buy. After not listening on how to tune for alky he blows up the motor and blames all the part manufacturers. Now he looks deeper in this tune thing and sees XFI is better then the rhythm method of birth control. He spends a few thousand on it and gets a startup program and goes to the track. Still pissed he is in the 13’s calls go out to supertuners. Being cheap as most buick guys he won’t pay. He gets a few friends who read some xfi tuning secrets and hit the track. Now he runs 13.0 but flames are shooting out the side of the head and the track is pissed for the oil down. Now the peanut gallery chimes in and says buick sucks and now he drop in a bulletproof LSX :icon_eyes: :icon_lol:
How many times have we heard/seen that scenario played out!! :rofl:
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This sounds like something I'd have said to a girl right before I dumped her:
Maybe not, but one thing is for sure, you were a lot more fun when you were young and dumb :D
Because old and dumb isn't as much fun...
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ThosNorbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.
The stock ecu does not provide immunity to interference from MSD boxes.
Thanks for getting engaged here Norbs, its all interesting and I'll have to study it all.
Did this (the above) turn out to be the ECM or all that Moates stuff?
Dave, the Moates stuff would corrupt the bin file randomly after powering the ecu down. You could re-flash it and it would be fine for a day, a week,,,,,, then all of a sudden a ecu code pops up bad eeprom. So i had to scrap that plan. Using the chip from Eric it ran great, however at high rpm/boost the mass air signal and during accel would go erratic, and start throwing timing all over the place, knock etc. Then I decided to go SD mode to eliminate the MAF out of the equation, it worked much better, however it still would start doing weird things and I could not get consistant results to hold the timing or the closed loop fuel control steady at WOT. Put the fast in and timing was rock solid, and great fuel control....... .......
Those problems may have had more to do with the chip than the ECM. I haven't seen such issues, and still run the stock ECM. However mine differs in that I am running the Tranlsator Pro. I have great bins for either MAF or SD. Running SD now.
GM engineers had a relatively controlled environment since they spec'd ALL the sensors and ancilliary electronics.
Then along comes Norby with his MSD emi generators...
:)
One advantage of newer CPU horsepower is you can digitally filter in your code and revisit that suspicious input to validate it, eliminating the crap.
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The bottom line is you can tune it the way you want any af you want and timing........ .under any boost condition or cruising...
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ttt
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The bottom line is you can tune it the way you want any af you want and timing........ .under any boost condition or cruising...
Yes you def have more control BUT why go to all that when ya can throw a chip in with no adjustments to it an run mid 11s.(like we did back in the 90's) . I know thats not fast to some BUT most guys have a hard time just getting there. :cool; Your car runnin Norbs ??? If so just go out an DRIVE it.. Enjoy it. I really think your getting into this to deep. And on top of it you (or ANYONE) will never have the fastest car out there !!!! There is ALWAYS someone faster !! :rock:
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I am waiting on some parts 8s' does not come cheap and takes time to get it sorted out.
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I am waiting on some parts 8s' does not come cheap and takes time to get it sorted out.
Hell with the 8's.. what about runnin 9's ??? :chin: You must be RICH !!!! :rock:
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I need to bypass the 9s; I know it won;t be easy, but even an 8.99 will be good enough to get banned for a long time.
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TSO...TSM guys running 8's all day....you have been trying to get to a # for 5 years....lol maybe if your car did not weigh 5000# you might get there
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Norbs is like me...except he is a lot smarter than me cause I got the looks.
But, he likes the tech stuff. If I buy a camera, I buy one with every bell and whistle known to man at that time. Same with electronics, etc. After the first week, I use the power button mainly. I like the technical aspect of things, and I like learning stuff. Most of the time I advise people just the opposite of what I might buy because I am experienced enuf to know the bells and whistles are not going to improve my actual performance, but having them makes me happy.
After a rough start, I became good friends with Bruce Plecan because he was really into the theory of things. I often did not agree with him, but, like Norbs, he was a lot smarter than me and I really enjoyed our discussions. I still regret that he passed. He was planning a road trip and was coming to visit me the spring he died.
Sean is right. If Norbs would stop using his Mini-Me (Brad) as ballast, he would pick up a couple of tenths.
Remember when Lawrence was making 1700 hp, or whatever it was, and running so damn quick? An old DFI fuel management, stock ignition, and a power glide. The converter made, or broke him, on any given day. Today, he would be laughed off the track because we all know that combo will not work. I forget what it weighed, but, it was not 5000 lbs :D
I suggest to not be too hard on Norbs cause he is faster than most of us when it is running!