Author Topic: MAF Upgrade or SD?  (Read 11056 times)

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Offline Dont Panic

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MAF Upgrade or SD?
« on: February 21 2019, 11:42:07 PM »
I was looking to upgrade my stock MAF with a 3.5" LS MAF and increase my intake piping diameter (~$300 for the translator and MAF + piping cost).  So I started researching and I see a lot of threads on removing the MAF and going SD.  So now I start researching SD for a few hours and I see there is a turbotweak SD2 chip but you need a powerlogger and 3 bar MAP which I don't have (I only have Direct Scan presently) so I would be into $850 for that setup. 


Then I start looking at the aftermarket ECU / engine management systems which look interesting and I cam across the XFI Sportsman which replaces the ECU and is $999.  From my research it seemed most people using the XFI Sportsman have more serious cars than I have, so it may not be good for what I have now but I could be wrong.


So now I am in a conundrum.  Do I buy the MAF and translator or do I put the money towards the SD setup which is only a few hundred more.  Which one is better for street driving?  If the XFI sportsman can be used on other engines in the future that would be a plus (I'm sure I can find this with some research).  Is the XFI sportsman much less of a system than the other more expensive SD options (MS3PRO, Eric's ECU GN, or the standard XFI model)?  I really like the look of Eric's ECU GN but I can't justify getting something like that with my set-up.  If the sportsman can interface with a universal gauge like this, or communicate with an android dash than that would help future proof it.  I have read a lot of good things with the SD2 chip but there is less information on the sportsman, likely because it is fairly new.  If the sportsman is simple enough to tweak once you get experience with it, then it would enable me to update it myself as I add parts in the future which would be a real plus.


Is anyone running the sportsman in a less aggressive street car?  Does anyone have experience with both the SD2 chip and the sportsman and if so what are the pluses and minuses of both? Would SD be noticeably better in performance for a set-up like I have or is it just more fun to tinker with?


Details about my set-up:- 42 lb injectors- TE44 turbo- 2800 stall converter- Front mount intercooler - Adjustable fuel pressure regulator- Turbotweak chip
- Plan to add alcohol injection next.

Offline earlbrown

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #1 on: February 22 2019, 12:22:02 AM »
For a street car, Translator and modern MAF all day long.


 
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Offline Dont Panic

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #2 on: February 22 2019, 08:06:35 AM »
Quote
For a street car, Translator and modern MAF all day long.

Thanks for the comment, but why?

I'm also wondering if going without a MAF would allow for less airflow restriction for faster turbo spool, or would that be negligible with a TE44, 3.5" MAF and 3.5" piping?

I have a good straight stretch of intake that would help create laminar air flow for the MAF (if that helps).  I also have a straight section of intercooler to TB piping if I wanted to go with a blow through MAF setup, although that scares me a bit in case something came apart in the MAF and got into the engine.  I will try to attach a pic of the engine bay. 

Offline nocooler

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #3 on: February 22 2019, 08:58:41 AM »
Keep it simple unless you completely understand what you are getting yourself and into. Te44 spool damn near instant - I doubt you’d see much improvement.
Put a translator/Maf with one of Eric’s chips in it and you’ll be good.
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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #4 on: February 22 2019, 09:51:25 AM »
I have been running without a maf for about 20 years.  If you have no emissions inspections, no visual inspections, etc. as I do.  It works fine.  I am currently running the SD-1 chip.

I am perfectly happy with the set up.  I am running a T66 bb turbo with an S housing and a 4.0" inlet pipe.  My imagination says it revs quicker under no load.

Performance-wise, it runs the same as it would with a 3.5" maf.  This is the first thing people have to understand, unless you have a car in the low Tens, or possibly even the Nines, there is nothing to be gained by going from something like a conventional TT 5.7 chip to a 6.1 chip, to an SD2, or to an XFI aftermarket set up.  Yep, that is contrary to the advertising thrown up by vendors and tuners, but, history has shown it to be true over and over over the past 25 years.

I would like to throw in a special shout out to the XFI-Sportsman.  It is the greatest crock of shit ever foisted off on the Buick community.  Yep, you can install it and start the car, but, it will not run worth a damn unless you hire the guy that sold it to you, or someone else, to tune it to your car.  It was a marketing gimmick and if you spend some time reading, you won't very many happy customers but you will find some used systems for sale.

Back to what I was saying.  There is no performance gain coming to you out of the box with any of the systems if your car runs only tens.  A 3.5 maf and a modern chip is capable of doing that virtually on the default settings of the chip as it is delivered.  You can tweak it a little leaner and get a bit more out of it, perhaps, or making it launch a little harder.  Personally, at this time, I think the TT 6.1 with a wideband O2 installed is the safest, simplest chip available.

If you have money to spend on a big turbo, matching converter, IC, heads, etc., and you want to top it off with an aftermarket fuel management system to have something to talk about,   Then spend $1900 on the ECU-GN offered by TurboTweak/Bailey Engineering.  Like the others, it will actually cost more by the time you add ignition bells and whistles to it.  The upside is that it is built specifically for turbo Buicks on top of a MegaSquirt 3 fuel management system that has virtually every bell and whistle known to man today built into it but you can plug it in, and drive the car away and take it to cars and coffee and not be afraid of it not starting or running right.

Jason Goodwin has one.  He can extol the many virtues of the system but, he will not tell you that it will convert your car from a slug to a rocket or leap tall buildings in a single bound.  Neither will Eric/Bob.  They are too honest for such.

If you are like Jason, or probably me before I got old and broke, these high end systems are fun to play with if you are technically oriented, but, they are not magic.  They may add hundredths to your performance but not tenths.  Walt Judy ran in the lower Nines on a MaxEffort chip which was the predecessor to the TT SD-1.  But, to have fun playing with the systems, first you must learn how they work, what the parameters mean, when you may need to tweak one, and what not to do to blow your engine up by messing with the wrong factor.  Chips from TT or Bob make it much harder to so.

THERE IS NO MAGIC FOR SALE IN A BOX THAT WILL TURN YOUR CAR INTO A MONSTER FROM ITS NORMAL PERSONA unless they start discounting boxes of money when you buy in volume. :D :D :D

Oh, yeah, the 3.5 LS1 maf will flow more air than a stock factory maf.  That might be beneficial in the low Tens.  The main benefit is reliability.  The factory style mafs are fragile and may not last a long time.  The rebuilt units are often not calibrated the same as the original turbo mafs, and some of them are just completely wrong for the cars.  This is one of the areas where you do get value for your money.  Just don't expect it to be faster than your original factory maf was when it worked right-unless you are into the tens, then you might pick up a little on the top end.

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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #5 on: February 22 2019, 09:55:46 AM »
Oh, yeah, Blow thru mafs sound better technically, but, no one, to my knowledge, has shown that it offered any advantage in the real world.  Over complication of a simple issue in my opinion.
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Offline Grumpy

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #6 on: February 22 2019, 09:56:18 AM »
keep it simple. mid/low 9's upgrade. what kinda car ?? looks tight in there.



Offline Steve Wood

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #7 on: February 22 2019, 09:58:15 AM »
It is tight in there LOL
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Offline daveismissing

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #8 on: February 22 2019, 10:22:17 AM »
Nice truthful summary Steve.
On this theme: At what point is it beneficial to move to LS-1 MAF and 3.5" plumbing VS LT-1MAF and 3" plumbing?
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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #9 on: February 22 2019, 10:37:08 AM »
I always suggest the LS1 right off the bat.  I would say the cross over point is around 11.0 maybe 11.2

It may be down in the tens as I have seen cars running in the tens with the factory maf.  It's really hard to be specific because no matter how technically something is right, some clown turns the boost up another pound and proves you wrong LOL
« Last Edit: February 22 2019, 10:48:16 AM by Steve Wood »
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Offline Forzfed

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #10 on: February 22 2019, 11:08:36 AM »
For a street car, Translator and modern MAF all day long.
Or Translator and modern MAF with wideband O2 correction.

Offline daveismissing

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #11 on: February 22 2019, 12:00:03 PM »
On the topic:Highway Stars appear to have a significant discounted sale on their plastic LS-1 MAF currently. 
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Offline Dont Panic

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #12 on: February 22 2019, 12:08:31 PM »
Thanks for the comments.

The engine is in an 87 Thunderbird Turbocoupe (one of the few 80's cars that hasn't appreciated in value).  Lots of room upfront but less on the sides.  Parts like headers / crossover / downpipe don't exactly bolt in but that would be the case with most hybrids.

Grumpy, what kind of MAF and pipe sizing are you using?

I have the turbotweak 5.7 chip now and I am using direct scan.  Based on the first few responses I am leaning towards getting the upgraded MAF and translator.  If I get the car dialed in and I still want more, I could then upgrade to a 6.1 chip, wideband and power logger.  That probably makes the most sense for me.  I should post a wanted add for a used set.  With all these new ECUs out there, I'm sure there are people with a used MAF setup looking to sell.

My turbo spool is far from instant right now but I need to replace my throttle body shaft seals and block off the EGR so that might help.  I will try out a boost controller as well.  I got something that looks like the RJC controller, I just need to install it.  Putting the stock intercooler up front may not have helped.




Offline Dont Panic

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #13 on: February 22 2019, 12:27:46 PM »
On the topic:Highway Stars appear to have a significant discounted sale on their plastic LS-1 MAF currently.

Yes, I had seen that and would likely be getting that combo if I go the MAF route which I am leaning towards.

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: MAF Upgrade or SD?
« Reply #14 on: February 22 2019, 12:33:04 PM »
Once you get the leaks out of the system, the match between the torque converter and the turbo is the most important thing.  The factory converter on a turbo car was around 2200 against the brakes.  The non-turbo converter was about 1700.  A TA49 can work with a stock converter if all else is right but a little tweaking in the chip usually helps.  A 2400-2800 stall converter will cover up a lot of other faults and make it go.

The RJC manual controller will usually get it spooling a bit quicker-especially for those that are running the hose straight from the compressor port to the wastegate actuator port.

Powerlogger is a much better investment than another chip.  There is no performance in going from a 5.7 to a 6.1.  It just makes it a bit harder for you to screw up :D  DirectScan was great in its day but lots of things can go wrong in the 1.4 seconds that it takes DirectScan to update.

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