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Offline Steve Wood

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Intercooler Tech
« on: July 17 2018, 08:46:18 AM »
Seems a bit complicated for a Shout Box discussion :)

Once the technology has been discussed, it seems to me that the next logical progression is practical application.  Pros and cons of vertical vs Horizontal tubes.  End tank design vs practical application of said design on a given platform.  Large tubes vs smaller tubes with regard to cooling via expansion within the tubes vs surface cooling or convection against packaging constraints, etc.

And, practically, is there any difference given packaging restraints-is there really any significant, demonstrable, gains to be achieved thru design over current available designs ?

Sorry, I got lost in my mind on this one...Dr Pepper has not taken effect yet this morning
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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #1 on: July 17 2018, 09:06:54 AM »
Seems a bit complicated for a Shout Box discussion :)

Once the technology has been discussed, it seems to me that the next logical progression is practical application.  Pros and cons of vertical vs Horizontal tubes.  End tank design vs practical application of said design on a given platform.  Large tubes vs smaller tubes with regard to cooling via expansion within the tubes vs surface cooling or convection against packaging constraints, etc.

And, practically, is there any difference given packaging restraints-is there really any significant, demonstrable, gains to be achieved thru design over current available designs ?

Sorry, I got lost in my mind on this one...Dr Pepper has not taken effect yet this morning


Do you have an email account that I could please email you what i have written so far in the article?


I have been going back over my descriptions of the definitions and trying to add more photos and examples to illustrate how that term/definition plays  role in the intercooler design, and just what exactly does that specific term/word/definition/subject mean in relation to intercooler performance-how does it affect it? how does it influence it? where does that piece of information fit in with the grand scheme of figuring out what type of intercooler would work best for you?


Right now I'm going back over the article and elaborating on each term as best I can, and then I plan to address things like you mentioned; horizontal vs vertical flow, bar and plate vs tube and fin, end tank design practicality vs the "ideal" end tank design, etc..


I am hoping that by the time I get to addressing the issues you mentioned, the subject matter will be easy to discuss because I will have directly, or indirectly, touched on many of those topics already in the article because of their relation to describing the terms and topics I started off with.


For example, I may not have directly discussed the differences between bar and plate, and tube and fin, but I do provide pictures of inside the charge air passageways of both a Bar and Plate (BnP) and a Tube and Fin (TnF) intercooler, and in the photo you can see how the TnF core has far less space for the charge air to move through, relative to a BnP core of the same size. I do point out that difference in available passageway airflow when I am describing the photo. This is what I mean by not directly addressing the topics, but touching on them enough at the time to where at the end of the article, hopefully everyone is familiar enough with similar ideas or topics/technology/design features, that they can easily refer back to a certain photo or description I wrote that will help them understand the topic at hand.


If you have an email that you would like to share with me, please let me know and I will send over the rough draft of what I have so far for this article.


If you DO read it...BE GENTLE with your comments!!hahahah!! The article is NOT finished yet! Please keep that in mind!


-Tyler

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #2 on: July 17 2018, 12:51:07 PM »
I am the kindest person on this board!  LOL
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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #3 on: July 17 2018, 09:47:46 PM »
Yes you are!
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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #4 on: July 19 2018, 07:48:52 AM »
In my limited experience sealing and airflow across the core makes the biggest difference.
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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #5 on: July 21 2018, 09:10:40 AM »

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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #6 on: July 21 2018, 10:23:25 AM »
THE INTERCOOLER ARTICLE IS FINALLY DONE!!


https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/07/21/Intercooler-Core-Design-and-Effects-A-Guide-to-Evaluating-Various-Intercoolers


Please let me know what you guys think!!
That is a serious amount of effort - now just wait for the witch-hunt to begin and the excuse train to leave the station.
Per my post above, nearly every TurboBuick (or G-body for that matter) I have ever seen running a FMIC has little to no ducting or sealing around the core to force air through it.  So while it is very nice to dissect the end tanks, charge pipe configuration, and internal and external fin designs - what does it matter if the air just flows around it?  Moreover what about the need for negative pressure behind the core to accommodate effective heat exchange especially when you start considering race-only (small radiators and no A/C) vs. street cars (with A/C condensers and larger more efficient radiators) applications? I'd also suggest that there is something to be gained or lost with air flow across the core relative to speed as the pressure around the sealed or unsealed core backs up or is bled off, respectively.  An unsealed core in a 11 second car may stand to gain a lot from sealing at all speeds, where an 8 second race car might only see gains at low speeds.  The MCSS did this from the factory, as did the Regals with some rubbery flaps that get binned with every FMIC install - followed by: durr durr why am I over heating now?

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pressure-drop-across-radiator-and-air-flow.322604/

Basically, all the fancy engineering in the world isn't going to matter once a shade-tree mechanic slaps it together and starts making compromises out of sheer laziness and ignorance.  Hell, I did this on my own Buick - but, that was 18 years ago and I was just 21 years old at the time.

The attached picture is your typical eBay intercooler laid flat with a sealed scoop in my TBSS, there is a large negative pressure area behind the core. Very similar concept to what came on the TRs from the factory - but, completely divorced from any sources of radiant heat (radiator, engine, A/C condenser, tranny or PS coolers, etc) and it doesn't have a hot lump of iron directly behind it.  IATs are a few degrees above ambient since it isn't saturated by heat or ignorance.  Plus, it doesn't impact my safety (bumper bars or structural frame components aren't cut out) or cooling or A/C performance; as is the accepted TBSS practice.   

Accept practices. Ah yes, those.  Contributing to vendor bias and recipes since the dawn of time.   I'd say that if you were going to market a product or service it would include a complete solution including a properly sealed FMIC core.   But, you are going to need data... because like advanced stats in baseball and hockey they are the branches clung to with finger tips by consumers and nut-swingers alike - and by extension ruin everything.

Pit a sealed cheap eBay core against as like sized unsealed top-o-the-line FMIC and determine the IAT deviation; and then consider if the cost-benefit analysis justifies the expense on top-end parts in a standard street car application.

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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #7 on: July 21 2018, 11:33:22 AM »
THE INTERCOOLER ARTICLE IS FINALLY DONE!!


https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/07/21/Intercooler-Core-Design-and-Effects-A-Guide-to-Evaluating-Various-Intercoolers


Please let me know what you guys think!!
That is a serious amount of effort - now just wait for the witch-hunt to begin and the excuse train to leave the station.
Per my post above, nearly every TurboBuick (or G-body for that matter) I have ever seen running a FMIC has little to no ducting or sealing around the core to force air through it.  So while it is very nice to dissect the end tanks, charge pipe configuration, and internal and external fin designs - what does it matter if the air just flows around it?  Moreover what about the need for negative pressure behind the core to accommodate effective heat exchange especially when you start considering race-only (small radiators and no A/C) vs. street cars (with A/C condensers and larger more efficient radiators) applications? I'd also suggest that there is something to be gained or lost with air flow across the core relative to speed as the pressure around the sealed or unsealed core backs up or is bled off, respectively.  An unsealed core in a 11 second car may stand to gain a lot from sealing at all speeds, where an 8 second race car might only see gains at low speeds.  The MCSS did this from the factory, as did the Regals with some rubbery flaps that get binned with every FMIC install - followed by: durr durr why am I over heating now?

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pressure-drop-across-radiator-and-air-flow.322604/

Basically, all the fancy engineering in the world isn't going to matter once a shade-tree mechanic slaps it together and starts making compromises out of sheer laziness and ignorance.  Hell, I did this on my own Buick - but, that was 18 years ago and I was just 21 years old at the time.

The attached picture is your typical eBay intercooler laid flat with a sealed scoop in my TBSS, there is a large negative pressure area behind the core. Very similar concept to what came on the TRs from the factory - but, completely divorced from any sources of radiant heat (radiator, engine, A/C condenser, tranny or PS coolers, etc) and it doesn't have a hot lump of iron directly behind it.  IATs are a few degrees above ambient since it isn't saturated by heat or ignorance.  Plus, it doesn't impact my safety (bumper bars or structural frame components aren't cut out) or cooling or A/C performance; as is the accepted TBSS practice.   

Accept practices. Ah yes, those.  Contributing to vendor bias and recipes since the dawn of time.   I'd say that if you were going to market a product or service it would include a complete solution including a properly sealed FMIC core.   But, you are going to need data... because like advanced stats in baseball and hockey they are the branches clung to with finger tips by consumers and nut-swingers alike - and by extension ruin everything.

Pit a sealed cheap eBay core against as like sized unsealed top-o-the-line FMIC and determine the IAT deviation; and then consider if the cost-benefit analysis justifies the expense on top-end parts in a standard street car application.


What do you mean "wait for the witch hunt and excuse train to leave the station" ?


Do you mean excuses from me?


I felt like I addressed the need to have adequate flow to the radiator in the article. Maybe not in incredible depth, but I felt like I at least made it known that you need to make sure that the airflow to the radiator is still cold enough to help remove heat from it, and have enough volume of airflow to make a difference.


Boxing in the intercooler would definitely help, but not at the expense of causing a reduction in flow to the radiator.


The reason I did not discuss boxing in the fmic in the article is because a vertical flow core, which I felt like I alluded to being the superior core, would have a large portion of the core exposed in the grille of the car, even with 3" end tanks on top, removing 3" of space from the grille area that could have been core area if it was a horizontal flow core.


A vertical flow core should still have at least 60-75% of the core directly behind the grille, if my memory serves me correct for the height at which the fmic's are mounted.


With about 3/4's of the core being exposed in the grille, I felt that the topic of boxing in the core wasn't really pertinent..... plus my article isn't really about maximizing an existing intercooler installation, but rather the various aspects of an intercooler, the technology used in an intercooler, and what to look for in an intercooler.


Vertical flow cores, unless the top end tank is huge and drops the core down low, should have a large portion of the core exposed in the grille area because of how small the actual core area is.


Personally I can't visualize how you would mount a guide for air to the bottom portion of the core (that could support 1,000hp+) that is secured enough to withstand the forces of airflow at high mph. I'm not sure how something like that would look and where it would mount that could take 140mph passes.


As for data....we'll be using my Bell core design on my engine when we run it on Duttweiler's engine dyno, seeking for 1,500hp (I'd really like to hit 1,600 if I'm honest). I'll sure to log the MAP pressure in and out of the core.


Once my engine is in the car, we'll be making the mounts and piping for the smaller Bell core, so that we can finally advertise these cores for sale. Before we do sell them, we already have people waiting for us to finish the mounts and piping so that they can test these cores (We have two Treadstone cores we are developing as well) and log the pressure drop across the core, and the thermal efficiency as well.


Once available to provide data, I plan on logging all the data I can with these cores. I even intend on trying multiple pipe routing, and potentially end tank design as well....I'm actually contemplating having Gee M Racing clock my turbo mounting flange forward 45 degrees, since I have to send it back to them anyway so that they can fix the ceramic coating they screwed up. The 45 degree rotation forward is intended to allow for as gradual angle possible for the turbo-to-IC-inlet pipe to make. The inlet of the core is already facing the engine, so if I can have the outlet of the turbo basically pointing downwards or almost completely down, I would have a <30 angle coming from the turbo, and then a gradual 90-degree bend to go under the radiator support and extend forward to the intercooler inlet, and then Bam! I'm already at the IC inlet with just 2 bends :D

Offline motorhead

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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #8 on: July 21 2018, 12:00:37 PM »
Definitely not suggesting the witch-hunt or excuses were expected from you - just those vendors who use products with the less than ideal characteristic s you've highlighted. I honestly appreciate your efforts.

I am in the middle of sweating my bag off shoveling rocks and dirt under my deck right now so I will revisit this later - if I am not in the ER recovering from heat stroke.
« Last Edit: July 21 2018, 01:56:44 PM by motorhead »
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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #9 on: July 21 2018, 02:05:01 PM »
Definitely not suggesting the witch-hunt or excuses were expected from you - just those vendors who use products with the less than ideal characteristic s you've highlighted. I honestly appreciate your efforts.

I am in the middle of sweating my bag off shoveling rocks and dirt under my deck right now so I will revisit this later - if I am not in the ER recovering from heat stroke.

Tyler's a welcome addition. He's educated, articulate and well written. As far as the other vendors are concerned...th ey'd best pull up their socks...cuz he's here to stay.
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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #10 on: July 21 2018, 02:23:41 PM »
Everyone likes discounts!
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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #11 on: July 22 2018, 11:03:33 AM »
Hey! I am not dead, sore, but not dead.
Admittedly what follows next is based upon my fixation on a single concept.

THE INTERCOOLER ARTICLE IS FINALLY DONE!!


https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/07/21/Intercooler-Core-Design-and-Effects-A-Guide-to-Evaluating-Various-Intercoolers


Please let me know what you guys think!!
That is a serious amount of effort - now just wait for the witch-hunt to begin and the excuse train to leave the station.
Per my post above, nearly every TurboBuick (or G-body for that matter) I have ever seen running a FMIC has little to no ducting or sealing around the core to force air through it.  So while it is very nice to dissect the end tanks, charge pipe configuration, and internal and external fin designs - what does it matter if the air just flows around it?  Moreover what about the need for negative pressure behind the core to accommodate effective heat exchange especially when you start considering race-only (small radiators and no A/C) vs. street cars (with A/C condensers and larger more efficient radiators) applications? I'd also suggest that there is something to be gained or lost with air flow across the core relative to speed as the pressure around the sealed or unsealed core backs up or is bled off, respectively.  An unsealed core in a 11 second car may stand to gain a lot from sealing at all speeds, where an 8 second race car might only see gains at low speeds.  The MCSS did this from the factory, as did the Regals with some rubbery flaps that get binned with every FMIC install - followed by: durr durr why am I over heating now?

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pressure-drop-across-radiator-and-air-flow.322604/

Basically, all the fancy engineering in the world isn't going to matter once a shade-tree mechanic slaps it together and starts making compromises out of sheer laziness and ignorance.  Hell, I did this on my own Buick - but, that was 18 years ago and I was just 21 years old at the time.

The attached picture is your typical eBay intercooler laid flat with a sealed scoop in my TBSS, there is a large negative pressure area behind the core. Very similar concept to what came on the TRs from the factory - but, completely divorced from any sources of radiant heat (radiator, engine, A/C condenser, tranny or PS coolers, etc) and it doesn't have a hot lump of iron directly behind it.  IATs are a few degrees above ambient since it isn't saturated by heat or ignorance.  Plus, it doesn't impact my safety (bumper bars or structural frame components aren't cut out) or cooling or A/C performance; as is the accepted TBSS practice.   

Accept practices. Ah yes, those.  Contributing to vendor bias and recipes since the dawn of time.   I'd say that if you were going to market a product or service it would include a complete solution including a properly sealed FMIC core.   But, you are going to need data... because like advanced stats in baseball and hockey they are the branches clung to with finger tips by consumers and nut-swingers alike - and by extension ruin everything.

Pit a sealed cheap eBay core against as like sized unsealed top-o-the-line FMIC and determine the IAT deviation; and then consider if the cost-benefit analysis justifies the expense on top-end parts in a standard street car application.

I felt like I addressed the need to have adequate flow to the radiator in the article. Maybe not in incredible depth, but I felt like I at least made it known that you need to make sure that the airflow to the radiator is still cold enough to help remove heat from it, and have enough volume of airflow to make a difference.

Boxing in the intercooler would definitely help, but not at the expense of causing a reduction in flow to the radiator.
But, why not emphasize optimizing a part that is so immensely dependent upon air flow?  It seems counter intuitive to me (at least in retrospect) to overlook a relative simple solution.  As for reduction in flow to the radiator and condenser well that points to the massive number of compromises we have to make between our wannabe race car desires and street car needs.  There is likely a more appropriate core design for a street car than a race car that allows more flow across the core, into the radiator/condenser, allows each to exchange the required heat, and meet performance objectives.  Most new car have their radiator and condenser sealed around their perimeter to improve efficiency.
And then you have cars that come with all three heat exchangers (lots of neat information in the first 3 pages or so) and manage air flow correctly: https://www.focusrs.org/forum/16-focus-rs-performance/15473-what-s-cooler-than-bein-cool-mishimoto-s-ford-focus-rs-intercooler-r-d.html
Even with the larger FMIC you can see they have integrated air flow management with bolt-on diverter plates (about the 7 min mark).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=JZP1zWTM0nE
Quote
The reason I did not discuss boxing in the fmic in the article is because a vertical flow core, which I felt like I alluded to being the superior core, would have a large portion of the core exposed in the grille of the car, even with 3" end tanks on top, removing 3" of space from the grille area that could have been core area if it was a horizontal flow core.
A vertical flow core should still have at least 60-75% of the core directly behind the grille, if my memory serves me correct for the height at which the fmic's are mounted.

With about 3/4's of the core being exposed in the grille, I felt that the topic of boxing in the core wasn't really pertinent..... plus my article isn't really about maximizing an existing intercooler installation, but rather the various aspects of an intercooler, the technology used in an intercooler, and what to look for in an intercooler.

Vertical flow cores, unless the top end tank is huge and drops the core down low, should have a large portion of the core exposed in the grille area because of how small the actual core area is.
So what you are saying is that you are perfectly okay with having a 12" cock and only being able to insert 8" of it because the other 4" is flaccid?  Again this seems counter-intuitive.  Personally I rather to have 6 inches that work properly for the application; hell even four rock hard inches would make my wife happy.  Yes, I am trying to be funny here...

I went back to the write up to see if there was a proposed sketch of a vertical flow IC, there wasn't, so the following is a bit of an assumption.  If I understand your objective correctly you want to feed hot air in the bottom and cold air discharged out the top.  This means that the critical part of the core is going to be tucked behind the bumper where the most heat transfer should occur based upon your described orientation (or just they way most think).  It would seem appropriate to either invert that in/out relationship to get the most cooling done from the top tank flowing down, or size appropriately and seal the core in the direct airflow path.
Some will remember a time when this was an acceptable option: http://www.geocities.ws/motorcity/lane/6272/tech_info/ford_ic/index.htm  Which by its sheer mass saturated the core with air flow; and it worked.  It was unnecessarily large and backyard engineering at its finest but nearly 20 years ago you worked with what you have.  It met the requirement and was cost effective; but far from optimized - especially for a street car.

Quote
Personally I can't visualize how you would mount a guide for air to the bottom portion of the core (that could support 1,000hp+) that is secured enough to withstand the forces of airflow at high mph.
Then why have a core that large to begin with?  100% of the core should have access to 100% necessary air flow.

Quote
I'm not sure how something like that would look and where it would mount that could take 140mph passes.
That is the race car vs. street car paradox, isn't it? Especially considering very few people will ever run near 140mph.  But, I would point you to the MCSS air box I posted above (part #7) as it seals and distributes air cross the whole core support.  They reproduce it in fiberglass.

Quote
As for data....we'll be using my Bell core design on my engine when we run it on Duttweiler's engine dyno, seeking for 1,500hp (I'd really like to hit 1,600 if I'm honest). I'll sure to log the MAP pressure in and out of the core.
That is great for meeting the needs of a 1500+ horsepower engine in a race car. But what about meeting the requirements of the average Joe's sub-500hp street car?  Do they need such a part, or just want it?

Quote
Once my engine is in the car, we'll be making the mounts and piping for the smaller Bell core, so that we can finally advertise these cores for sale. Before we do sell them, we already have people waiting for us to finish the mounts and piping so that they can test these cores (We have two Treadstone cores we are developing as well) and log the pressure drop across the core, and the thermal efficiency as well.
I love race car parts as much as the next guy - but if an optimized eBay intercooler works well enough why go to the added expense of a full race part?  I stand by my recommendation of testing these back to back and seeing the design limitations of each. 

Regardless, I look forward to the results.
« Last Edit: July 22 2018, 01:23:21 PM by motorhead »
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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #12 on: July 22 2018, 12:11:14 PM »
"That is great for meeting the needs of a 1500+ horsepower engine in a race car. But what about meeting the requirements of the average Joe's sub-500hp street car?  Do they need such a part, or just want it?"


And this sums up the conundrum in a nutshell. Technology vs economics.  :)

The market for 1500 hp intercoolers is small.  The technology may be a tour de force, but, what is the end game? Is the purpose to establish yourself as a player to be taken seriously?  Or is the purpose to make money in the intercooler business using a "super" version to draw in the average guy for whom, just about any option will work but who wants to say he has the best even tho' it cannot be shown to really add performance to his machine?

The real problem is that the Buick business is an over stocked gold fish pond. I would be focused on a much larger market




« Last Edit: July 22 2018, 12:25:41 PM by Steve Wood »
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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #13 on: July 22 2018, 12:56:20 PM »
Yep, even kenne-bell moved on to fords and mopars. But the saturation only lasts a generation and there are a bunch of new owners as the previous ones move on,die or whatever. So the next gen of cool guy parts can come along and grab some market. Though as with any specialty car the market shrinks due to age and attrition. Look at how many trifive chevies, first gen mustangs and even fox body mustangs and g body cars you used to see on the road and they have all dried up. They are out there but without venders putting the stuff out to keep em on the road they just go away.

I love cool guy but I'm definitely not the market. I get some second hand and just the stuff that works.

On a side note, she said give me ten inches and make it hurt so I efded her twice and hit her in the head with a brick. Not sure of the comedian but I thought it funny when I heard it.

Keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to the write up on the Holley tuning classes. Surely you will be able to make money doing that to peoples cars.
Rich

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Re: Intercooler Tech
« Reply #14 on: July 22 2018, 01:16:39 PM »
Keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to the write up on the Holley tuning classes. Surely you will be able to make money doing that to peoples cars.
I would love to learn the Holley and look forward to any subjective write up on the software. However, I had a smart fella give me some good advice one time.  If someone is paying, then they can tell you what to do.  If you volunteer, then no one can say anything one way or the other because you did whatever you did for free.  Of course, he was talking about doing stuff at church but I've found it applies in almost any situation. No making money for me when it comes to tuning.
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