IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => Transmissions => Topic started by: SuperSix on July 30 2011, 05:10:54 PM
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I need to make sure the transmission is the LAST thing I have to worry about.
Julio Don (AKA Razor) lives locally, so I asked him for a recommendation, and he gave me name. Called him last week,and dropped it off today. It was about a 2 hour drive each way, I had arranged to borrow a friend's trailer to brig it down there. When that fell through I threw it in the trunk of the Caddy and took it there. The air suspension does NOT like having that much weight in the trunk, but all went well. Guy has a really nice shop - I told him I want basically a bulletproof street transmission, I don't see myself taking it to the track much. He's building it for a bit over 500HP, so I shouldn't have to worry about breaking it.
It was my spare trans, which had been gone through not too long before I shelved it, so it shouldn't be too bad. I know it's getting a hardend stator, billet forward drum, a mix of Alto and Borg Warner clutches, and a Trans Go kit. Possibly a billet servo too.
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When I spec'd my transmission I contacted Mike Ridings in New York...one of the finest transmission builders there are. I basically told him I needed the trans to hold up to mid 11 passes all day off the foot brake. The three hard parts he recommended were the pump stator tube, sun gear shell and the forward drum. I drive my car all over the place and pound the shit out of it at my local track on Saturday nites...with zero issues. Attach the biggest B and M trans cooler you can find to the cross bracing in front of the rad...it'll keep your trans nice and cool...and extend it's life.
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Thanks. I plan to do just that with the cooler.
Did you use both the stock and aftermarket cooler?
I was thinking running the fluid Trans > OEM radiator cooler > B&M plate > trans.
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Thanks. I plan to do just that with the cooler.
Did you use both the stock and aftermarket cooler?
I was thinking running the fluid Trans > OEM radiator cooler > B&M plate > trans.
Go straight to the external cooler...two reasons. Do you really want all that shit sitting in the trans portion of the cooler to get pumped into your new trans when you fire it up? How clogged up and wore out is the trans cooler portion...so how much cooling is it really gonna do? I run a trans temp gauge in my car cuz I'm trashing on it at the track on a regular basis...and it stays as cool as a cucumber with the external cooler.
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Got call from the tranny guy today - not good.
Apparently the guy that rebuilt it last time was a moron - no names will be given. (This is my spars trans, not the one that came on the GN I just bought)
They used nuts to load the accumulator, only installed 1/2 of a 10 vane kit, it was missing a governor spring, direct drum is trashed (because of the accumulator/nut combo) they had used JBWeld to secure the wiring harness/plug to the case, I put MAYBE 2k on the trans and the band is done - they weren't Altos like I paid for, etc and so forth.
It's getting a modified Trans Go kit, new pomp, direct drum, billet forward drum shaft assembly (http://scottmcclayengineering.com/200-4r-drum.html) from Scott McClay, rollerized park gear, rollerized low/reverse clutch housing, Alto red clutches, some Borg parts, and all the standard replacement parts.
Going to run me about 1500 total, seems fair to me.
Still pissed about getting fucked on the first rebuild - but it was a long time ago, time to move on.
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Thanks. I plan to do just that with the cooler.
Did you use both the stock and aftermarket cooler?
I was thinking running the fluid Trans > OEM radiator cooler > B&M plate > trans.
Go straight to the external cooler...two reasons. Do you really want all that shit sitting in the trans portion of the cooler to get pumped into your new trans when you fire it up? How clogged up and wore out is the trans cooler portion...so how much cooling is it really gonna do? I run a trans temp gauge in my car cuz I'm trashing on it at the track on a regular basis...and it stays as cool as a cucumber with the external cooler.
I asked him about this Scoob.
He agreed with you. I mentioned I had seen a post that linked to PTC or Pat's (can't remember) that said to use both - he said it was a waste.
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Got call from the tranny guy today - not good.
Apparently the guy that rebuilt it last time was a moron - no names will be given. (This is my spars trans, not the one that came on the GN I just bought)
They used nuts to load the accumulator, only installed 1/2 of a 10 vane kit, it was missing a governor spring, direct drum is trashed (because of the accumulator/nut combo) they had used JBWeld to secure the wiring harness/plug to the case, I put MAYBE 2k on the trans and the band is done - they weren't Altos like I paid for, etc and so forth.
It's getting a modified Trans Go kit, new pomp, direct drum, billet forward drum shaft assembly (http://scottmcclayengineering.com/200-4r-drum.html) from Scott McClay, rollerized park gear, rollerized low/reverse clutch housing, Alto red clutches, some Borg parts, and all the standard replacement parts.
Going to run me about 1500 total, seems fair to me.
Still pissed about getting fucked on the first rebuild - but it was a long time ago, time to move on.
Sounds like what happened when I bought Norbs transmission.. .and this was no fault of Norbs. The shop that built it for Norbs originally fucked up large. When I had my tranny guy take it apart to freshen it up...the other place had screwed up so much stuff inside that I had to get another 200 trans from Norbs that he had laying around to use for parts.
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Got call from the tranny guy today - not good.
Apparently the guy that rebuilt it last time was a moron - no names will be given. (This is my spars trans, not the one that came on the GN I just bought)
They used nuts to load the accumulator, only installed 1/2 of a 10 vane kit, it was missing a governor spring, direct drum is trashed (because of the accumulator/nut combo) they had used JBWeld to secure the wiring harness/plug to the case, I put MAYBE 2k on the trans and the band is done - they weren't Altos like I paid for, etc and so forth.
It's getting a modified Trans Go kit, new pomp, direct drum, billet forward drum shaft assembly (http://scottmcclayengineering.com/200-4r-drum.html) from Scott McClay, rollerized park gear, rollerized low/reverse clutch housing, Alto red clutches, some Borg parts, and all the standard replacement parts.
Going to run me about 1500 total, seems fair to me.
Still pissed about getting fucked on the first rebuild - but it was a long time ago, time to move on.
Sounds like what happened when I bought Norbs transmission.. .and this was no fault of Norbs. The shop that built it for Norbs originally fucked up large. When I had my tranny guy take it apart to freshen it up...the other place had screwed up so much stuff inside that I had to get another 200 trans from Norbs that he had laying around to use for parts.
Yep.. I was hoping I wouldn't have to take another trans down there.
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Parts ordered. Wheeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeee
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I agree with Scoob fwiw. When I do trans coolers for customers that tow, I bypass the rad and go with a bigger cooler than what I think it needs. I always felt it was better to eliminate the 200 degrees the coolant contributes.
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I agree with Scoob fwiw. When I do trans coolers for customers that tow, I bypass the rad and go with a bigger cooler than what I think it needs. I always felt it was better to eliminate the 200 degrees the coolant contributes.
he mentioned that in cold climates - using them in series may help the trans reach operating temp faster - but not needed here in sunny Florida. :)
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I would rather overcold a trans than overheat it.
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Steve from Pat's emailed me back - $200.00 plus shipping to restall the converter.
Again.. Wheeeeeeeeeeee eee (That's the sound of my wallet getting thinner)
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Steve from Pat's emailed me back - $200.00 plus shipping to restall the converter.
Again.. Wheeeeeeeeeeee eee (That's the sound of my wallet getting thinner)
I thought you got married a little while ago?
AJ___
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Har har har... :P
She likes the Buick, and doesn't mind me spending money.
We keep our finances separate - I learned my lesson about that from my first wife. :013:
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I would rather overcold a trans than overheat it.
I agree...and here's why...slide down to check the heat chart.
http://forums.nicoclub.com/transmission-life-expectancy-versus-temperature-chart-t337645.html (http://forums.nicoclub.com/transmission-life-expectancy-versus-temperature-chart-t337645.html)
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Drove down tonight and picked up the transmission. Unbelievable the parts this guy replaced and didn't charge additional. Since the first trans guy broke the wiring connector, and then JBWelded it to the case, he replaced the harness. He didn't like the pressure switches, so he replaced those too. Many little parts replaced for free - I definitely appreciate that. He even put a new pan on, the old pan had a drain plug, he said they are nothing more than a point of failure, and it's not a huge deal to just drop the pan if the fluid needs changed.
On to the pics (Cell phone, sorry)
Box 'o parts that were replaced:
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/2011-08-18202936.jpg)
Drum was hammered - due to the hokey accumulator "fix"
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/2011-08-18202950.jpg)
Aren't all servos supposed to have a chunk missing? He found the rest of it in the pan.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/2011-08-18203036.jpg)
Mmm toasty steels
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/2011-08-18203058.jpg)
JB Welded connector:
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/2011-08-18204605.jpg)
Ain't she purdy?
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/2011-08-18232024.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/2011-08-18203125.jpg)
The final tally and parts list. (Many of the free items not listed) and no, it didn't cost 11k. :P
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/TransRebuild.jpg)
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Did you buy 10 of them?
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Did you buy 10 of them?
Mis-placed decimal, my friend.
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I DO like the level of detail in the invoice. He sourced CK parts etc?
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I DO like the level of detail in the invoice. He sourced CK parts etc?
Yes. 2 parts from CK, and a billet Drum from Scott McClay.
http://www.scottmcclayengineering.com/200-4r-drum.html (http://www.scottmcclayengineering.com/200-4r-drum.html)
He even had me order those from the respective vendors, so no fear of markup.
We went with the McClay drum, he said CK's drum needs additional machining, the McCLay unit is a drop in.
I had no idea it came with a 2 year warranty, that's awesome.
Of course, it's all conjecture until I get the trans in and beat on it.
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I forgot to post my favorite part of the fucked up rebuild.
Not sure what this part is..
Mike said "Put this (plastic spring retainer) on this part..
I looked at it, noticed the "tit" should go into the open, keyed space. He said "Good, that's the way it goes on there."
Note where I put "FAIL", that's how the previous "rebuilder" had put the pieces together. W.T.F.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/2011-08-18202903-1.jpg)
It's NOT supposed to look like this... How fucking lazy can you be to not clock this piece correctly?????
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/2011-08-18202910.jpg)
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Glad it is coming together for you.
AJ___
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Glad it is coming together for you.
AJ___
Slowly but surely.
The suspension is shit, off to order bushings galore from Rock Auto... Best to get it done while the engine is out..
Like I said in another post, the body/frame has 155k+ on it, the U joints are stock, so I expect that the suspension parts are probably stock too.
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I ordered a new Spicer 1350 slip yoke from Drivetrain America to replace the badly worn slip yoke on the driveshaft. I ordered new Ujoints today too. Once I get the new joints and yoke on, I'm taking the assembly to get balanced. The trans guy said I had a teflon rear seal (?) and it would be best to replace the yoke. These poor ujoints have a LOT of wear and tear on them - ~150k, and they are the stockers.
Best price I could find on the 1350 Spicer unit:
http://www.drivetrainamerica.com/p-5625-3-3-4281x-1350-transmission-yoke.aspx (http://www.drivetrainamerica.com/p-5625-3-3-4281x-1350-transmission-yoke.aspx)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/P1020255.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/P1020253.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87%20Grand%20National/Transmission/P1020254.jpg)
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I'm impressed. Quality work...at a great price.
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Yep - I forgot to mention he replaced the input shaft for free. The original one had some pretty bad surface rust, since it was my spare and sat for ~10 years.
He cleaned it up as good as he could, but it had some pitting. He was worried about the strength of the shaft so he replaced it. Free.
I'm tempted to put it in the 87 T. :D
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I picked up a billet input shaft and an Art Carr hardened front drum from my engine builder in Montreal...and in the fall or next spring I'll have my trans guy install them when he freshens it up for me. This is Norbs old 2004R I have...and it has a transbrake in it. I also have Norbs custom made 4" driveshaft with the spicer yokes and U-joints...and I had the diff upgraded to an Auborn Pro Series posi...so with the additonal trans hard parts...the drivetrain should be able to withstand the shock of a couple of transbrake launches. Gotta try it...just once.
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Oops...meant to modify...and hit quote. Doh!!
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Bought the tranny cooler today..
Fluidyne FHP-10029
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360148641365 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360148641365)
http://www.sportcompactonly.com/Fluidyne/part_b-125_p-7954.htm (http://www.sportcompactonly.com/Fluidyne/part_b-125_p-7954.htm)
It's a beast - 18"x8.75"x1". Yes, I know it's not a plate cooler - but it's rated for 18k BTU, enough for a bus.
$40.00 shipped to my door, that's with paying sales tax. :P
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/lucky409/IMG_2832.jpg)
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I zip tied mine to the cross bracing...lots of airflow.
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I DO like the level of detail in the invoice. He sourced CK parts etc?
Yes. 2 parts from CK, and a billet Drum from Scott McClay.
http://www.scottmcclayengineering.com/200-4r-drum.html (http://www.scottmcclayengineering.com/200-4r-drum.html)
He even had me order those from the respective vendors, so no fear of markup.
We went with the McClay drum, he said CK's drum needs additional machining, the McCLay unit is a drop in.
I had no idea it came with a 2 year warranty, that's awesome.
Of course, it's all conjecture until I get the trans in and beat on it.
Looks like a pretty thorough overhaul. If you don't mind me asking, how much was the McClay drum. And what needs additional machining on the ck unit ? TIA
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I DO like the level of detail in the invoice. He sourced CK parts etc?
Yes. 2 parts from CK, and a billet Drum from Scott McClay.
http://www.scottmcclayengineering.com/200-4r-drum.html (http://www.scottmcclayengineering.com/200-4r-drum.html)
He even had me order those from the respective vendors, so no fear of markup.
We went with the McClay drum, he said CK's drum needs additional machining, the McCLay unit is a drop in.
I had no idea it came with a 2 year warranty, that's awesome.
Of course, it's all conjecture until I get the trans in and beat on it.
Looks like a pretty thorough overhaul. If you don't mind me asking, how much was the McClay drum. And what needs additional machining on the ck unit ? TIA
The McClay drum was $435.00 with shipping, ~ $80 or so more than the CK unit. I'm not sure what needed to be machined, I just figured that if it needed machining it wasn't as good of a product, incomplete in my mind, and from the research I did, McClay's parts are pretty much bulletproof.
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DId he dual feed the direct clutches?
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I don't think so. At least not that I remembered.
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Get mine back tomorrow morning...and it's got enuf hard parts in it now to sink a battleship.