IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Steve Wood on July 20 2019, 11:57:23 PM
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Earl, I have been waiting for some magical being to come along and do the rear mains on both my Buicks. Beginning to lose hope and am thinking about sucking it up and doing it myself.
I see several ways suggested it can be done, but the more I read, the more questions I have.
I started with http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/engine/rearmain.html as a basis.
Okay, assuming it get the old cap off and clean it up so it's oil-free, then:
Using a rubber seal (dry according to Fel-Pro) and installing it cocked .
Now my questions begin.
Some say to apply a paper thin layer of anaerobic sealer to the mating surfaces, install the cap, and torque it down to 100 ft lbs, then inject the side cavities of the cap until the sealer seeps out. YET, others say, lightly snug the cap, then inject the sealer in the side pockets til it's seeping out, and THEN torque the cap down to the 100 ft lb spec.
Okay, that suggests several questions. First, torque it down it down all the way before filling the side pockets, or fill first, then torque, and inject some more in case there is room for more.
Second, what are your choices for sealer. I was thinking Right Stuff because it is applied like a caulking gun. Anaerobic sealer on the face or something else?
In other words, give me the Earl Brown procedure for a leak-proof future in details an old man can understand. A picture where to apply the sealer between the cap and block would be nice as well if you have such.
Appreciate it!
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Have you a wet coat hanger ready to stick up there to get any air bubbles out of those side passages.
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:cheers:
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One of the reasons I ask is the picture posted by TurboDave at the bottom of this page link https://turbobuick.com/threads/rear-main-seal-the-right-stuff-grey-or-black.449079/ (https://turbobuick.com/threads/rear-main-seal-the-right-stuff-grey-or-black.449079/)
He shows where he put some silicone in yellow and the red shows where he put some anaerobic sealer. I don't understand what good it does to put the anaerobic in the main cap register area. It's in front of the rear seal and it seems that where he put the yellow is where sealer is required as the stuff shot into the side pockets may not reach this area...
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Here's a couple of videos from Steve V that might help a bit?
https://youtu.be/r0an5H4iKps (https://youtu.be/r0an5H4iKps)
https://youtu.be/wB2DJqUqDMs (https://youtu.be/wB2DJqUqDMs)
I've got to do mine one of this days (yrs) so let us know how it turns out for you please and thanks. :icon_smile:
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Norm, one of those was what added to my confusion as he left the cap untorqued until he shot some silicone into the pockets....I have to reread Paul's write up as he may have suggested the same.
It's always dangerous to consult more than one guru because confusion always follows. Hence, I asked Earl for a tie breaker
I am hoping I find something like pan gasket leaks as both of my cars are leaking like crazy and I see oil everywhere...t hey have been doing so for a long time, I am just beginning to be irritated :D
Thanks for the links... :cheers:
the second one showed what I wanted to see and it agreed with my preconceived ideas so it was even better! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Now, I am waiting for Earl to mention Yamaguchi #9 as the preferred sealer :rock:
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That Yamaguchi is good stuff for sealant that is a machined surface. It won’t make the cap stand up off its mating surface and give extra bearing clearance like RTV. I’m no guru my vote a dab of RTV on seal ends and Yamahabond on cap torque cap tonight fill the end tomorrow with a RTV product tomorrow Earl will probably a a beer break in there somewhere.
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It won’t make the cap stand up off its mating surface and give extra bearing clearance like RTV.
Do people put sealants between the main cap and its register? I have done a number of rope main rear seals, but have not done that.
Hell, I am reasonably sure, I never used silicone sealers. Not sure it existed.
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Earl will appear fresh from his latest porn production and proclaim the correct thickness of application to be 0.735 molecule
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The way I do it is to put the rubber seal in slightly cocked. One TINY dab of Yamabond on the parting faces of the seal. Then a one molecule thick smear of Yamabond across the back of the block to seal the main cap.
Once the cap is toqued, I shoot The Right Stuff in the side cavities, and jab in some twisted safety wire to act as rebar since I never own any pipe cleaners. (odds or that step is unnecessary since The Right Stuff is so badass).
Then I put a blob of clay on the aftermarket pickup tube with no trap door and put the pan in place with no gasket. After I realize the curtain area of the pickup is waaaaaay greater than the tube ID, I bust out the big wrenches and try to straighten out some of the S-curve from the pickup tube without pinching it (while keeping it square with the pan).
Once I'm happy with the gap, I safety wire the pickup tube bolts, Right Stuff the pan in place with no gasket, and finish drinking beers.
As as added 'unnecessary step, I started putting a one molecule layer of Yamabond on the OD of the rear main seal. A few years ago I got my ass handed to me by a 327 that had a loose fit in the register. That probably won't be an option if you're rolling in a new seal on an assembled engine.
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thanks, Earl! I figured you would use Yamabond somewhere-even if in tiny proportions :D
Wmsonta, the consensus of opinion today is that most main seal leaks are not around the seal, but more likely, and in greater volume, at the parting lines of the cap with the block.
If you note in the last video provided by Norms40, he (steve v) shows how the sealant seeps out of the seams and the effort he goes to in order to leave no void unfilled. Kinda like Earl's movies, one might say.
In the video he uses the same silicone he is forcing into the cavities on the bottom of the cap. This is where Earl uses a thin coat of Yamabond #5, I believe. Operative word is thin.
The guy in the video leaves the cap untorqued to help the the silicone fill the cracks, voids, what ever. Some do this. Earl torques it down and then forces it in. Seems to be about 50-50 from what I can determine.
I think one would like to get it right the first time because it will be a lot more difficult to break loose the second time.
The sealer of choice seems to be either Right Stuff black or gray Or black ultra silicone both of which are more oil impervious. Right Stuff seems to flow a bit better and you can get it in a pump that makes it easier to push in the pockets and surrounding seams. (Further reading suggests that the Ultra is a bit thinner than Right Stuff so it should flow easier)
It's important to run a wet wire or such into the pocket and eliminate air pockets plus force the sealer into any spots it had not gone when filling it. Then refill it with some more of the sealer.
The FelPro rubber seals come with a couple of inserts to force into the pockets after filling them. I think this is to try to force the sealer further into the voids. I don't think many use them and do it as shown in the video/described by Earl
Now Earl positions the pick up closer to the bottom of the pan than it probably came from the factory. It's just good engine practice and I am sure you have done that many a time. Don't bet on me doing it :rofl:
He also glues the pan on instead of using a gasket. It won't leak that way but I gave my plasma cutter to someone and I am not going to make my descendants use a sledge hammer to break the pan loose. :rock:
The rubber gaskets from the factory are a son of gun. They are made to be torqued to 96 inch lbs (actually the book says 88 inch lbs) and if you torque them to 100 inch lbs, they will probably cut and leak like a fiend. Also they tend to come loose with so little tension so hold them so blue locktite is a good idea.
I would probably use a cork style gasket -If I misspoke some where above, the guys will correct me :)
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After splitting 3 rubber pan gaskets in one day and using The Right Stuff on try #4, I'll never use a gasket again. You can also peen down the titties on the pan to gain a little pickup to pan distance.
I have pan gaskets on my eBay story and I always feel kinda off when I mail them out.
Pulling the pan after using that stuff really isn't as bad as it's made out to be. The 20 bolt pan has a very strong rail, so a wedge in the corner will pip the pan off in one big jump. The Right Stuff isn't stretchy like conventional RTV,so one you overcome it's adhesive limit, it comes off swiftly.
The cool thing about Yamabond4 is how thin it is (5 is thicker and more gooey). It actually has a learning curve to use it. It almost pours out of the tube with VERY LITTLE squeezing. After you're done, the tube has to be snatched away from the workpiece quickly. Otherwise you'll have a 10' flying spiderweb that will find your face or armhair. I don't worry about it screwing with my bearing clearances or taper when I put it under the main cap either. It also doesn't give a crap about oil, gas, or water.
As another awesome use, is smearing it around water ports on the head and deck when using MLS gaskets without copper coat. It's also what I use to seal head studs. And pipe threads if I'm not using teflon tape.
Back when I was a teen my TVR used to be bad about coolant eroding way my composite head gaskets at the water ports. When the material was removed at the fire ring, they'd collapse and hydrolock the engine when I cut it off. I speared some Yamabond4 on the ID of the holes and stopped that problem dead in it's tracks. It's still like that today.
It also works to 'rig' up a leaky O-ring seal against a pitted bore. 4 is thin enough to get out of the way and not make things worse, but still fill in scratches and pits in the bore to make a seal. I don't recommend that, but it has worked for me in the past.
It's truly amazing stuff for what it is. It's a shame most people have never heard of it.
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Okay, I thought 5 was the thinner one...so 4 is the one to use if I understand correctly.
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I watched a guy split two in a row. When he started to do the third one, I told him that he was using too much torque. After an argument, I bet him $25 that he was wrong. I won the money and the third time was the charm. You might have convinced me to give it a shot. There is so much oil everywhere that I am not sure where it is coming from.
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Wmsonta, the consensus of opinion today is that most main seal leaks are not around the seal, but more likely, and in greater volume, at the parting lines of the cap with the block.
If I agree or not, it's not going to change what works/has worked for me. Last fall when I decided to sell everything, I owned 6 rope seal engines. A Vega, a Monza, a GN and 3 Caddy 500's. I did 3 rope main seal repairs before I was old enough to drive. All 3 had unacceptable results. Have not had a failure since.
I am not going to put anything on the main cap mating surface. I can't get that surface clean enough to suit me.
Use what works for you or what ever you want. Things are better now. The first repairs I attempted were rope for both the crankshaft and the 'H' (side) seals. By the early '70's mechanics used 6 cyl (single lip) crank seals/Felpro neoprene side seals, on all those Vega's parked everywhere.
I do not see a problem.
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As author of this thread, I thought it was clear that this was about a turbo Buick rear main seal and not a generic post.
It may seem like voodoo to you, but, it is basically the technique proscribed by The GM engineers of the Buick Division 30 years ago using the same type of sealer as discussed in the thread. See the attached shot taken from the manual. Note the picture showing the desired application of an anaerobic sealer as discussed by Earl and others. Look up the suggested sealer. It's still for sale from GM.
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After reading and watching videos, it pretty much comes down to two variations of the factory technique. One using an anaerobic sealer on the mating faces in a very thin coat which is easy because the stuff is watery followed by torquing to spec and then the side pockets are pumped full of either Utra black/gray or Right Stuff black/gray. De-aerating the goo with a wet probe is crucial.
The Right Stuff is a bit thicker than the Ultra but either work well.
The other version is similar but rather than using an anaerobic, it uses a thin smear of the above silicones on the face, followed by smearing the cap cavities with silicone and installing the cap (others install the cap loosely, pump full of silicone until it seeps out), then torque down, de-aerate, fill again if necessary. Six of one, half dozen of the other, it seems.
Everyone tries to insure the seams are showing silicone and some even try to force some silicone into the seams as additional insurance.
Virtually everyone also use a neoprene seal instead of rope.
The key to success is cleanliness so the silicone sticks to the surrounding surfaces and prevents oil from leaking around the cap or through the mating surfaces.
Almost no one uses the rubber plugs that come with the seal as they do not insure as good of seal as forcing silicone into any potential leaking area.
The manual says the factory used nylon plugs but many swear their factory engine had silicone in the pockets.
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Come on Steve all you need is a tube of clear silicone, it seals everything!
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Your memory is not failing at all! :rock: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
You remember when he argued that a Fram Hp2 and, I think, an HP3 both would fit a Buick? When we pointed out the threads were different, he go mad and said he had been using the wrong one for years and it worked perfectly..... ah, those were the days
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Do people put sealants between the main cap and its register? I have done a number of rope main rear seals, but have not done that.
Hell, I am reasonably sure, I never used silicone sealers. Not sure it existed.
This is my part in this. How it started. Turns out not only do they, but a large number of people do.
I might as well cause more and say I have always used the neoprene side seals when available. As long as they install from the top. Put another way, installed after the main cap and before it is torqued.
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I should have linked to the Mother of Buick sites from around the beginning of the 21st century as it was where I started
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/engine/rearmain.html (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/engine/rearmain.html)
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Why in the hell would you seal the sides before torquing the cap down? What is the performance benefit in that?
I like The Right Stuff on the side seling areas because it comes in a Cheeze Whiz can. (that and I have a tube since that's what seals the pan).
That was surprising to see the factory mentions sealing the parting face of the main cap. Like that small weeping from a dry cap could be noticed next to the leaky factory rope seal.
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My guess is that it gives the sealant a larger "leak" to aim for and insures that a better seal might be obtained. I'm not sure that is really a problem as long as the surfaces were properly cleaned so that the silicone sticks properly where it contacts the cap and it's surroundings.
Either way should work as long as one moves quickly before things start to cure. Seems to me that your technique has less potential risk with regard to the cap not ending up fitting properly. One can smear some silicone on the sides/grooves and install the cap and torque it down before injecting more into the pockets, but, again, I am not sure that buys anything. I think I would rather fill each side in one pass and get the air pockets out thus creating a potentially more homogeneous fill/seal.
Probably makes no difference in the end, tho. Using Silicone insures a solid seal if done right whereas the rubber plugs just try to fill the space and hope that pressure makes the seal.
Be damn hard to install a rope seal properly into an engine that is installed in the car without dropping the crank which is borderline insanity, IMO of course. :D
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"Why in the hell would you seal the sides before torquing the cap down?"
"The FelPro rubber seals come with a couple of inserts to force into the pockets after filling them."
I do not know what to say. It is as if, nobody on this forum has ever installed neoprene side seals.
Silicone in lieu of side seals did not start w/turbo Buicks. It was used on nearly every rope seal motor made as soon as it was commonly available. I would guess, turbo buicks were the last to that party based on the yrs of production. Before silicone, every kind of sealer, various compounds, cement w/ ground rubber, et al.
I will have to give all this some thought. Busy now.
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I was almost 78 years old when I posted this simple question regarding current best practices for installing neoprene rear main seals in a turbo buick 3.8.
No where that I can recall did I mention rope seals or anything such.
I hope that this is simply a nightmare rather than the alternative that I have since died and landed in hell with a devil that is intent upon breaking me to the wheel with rope seals and rubber side seals. If I wake up to a 312 Y block ford with a rear main cap that is grooved too deep for the seal and is intent on puking oil around the seams no matter how hard I pound those side seals into the grooves, then I will know this indeed hell! :013: :013: :013: I'm sure it is because I gave my Vega station wagon body to a friend last year.
It is not that we have not used rubber side seals in the past; it is that we have found a way in the past 25 years or so to create a better seal than is often obtained with the side seals when it comes to stopping the notoriously oil drips from our Buicks.
Progress often entails improving upon time honored practices as technology continues its relentless march.
I recall in the fifties that some added Comet to the oil when starting up a fresh small block with chrome rings to improve the seal to the cylinder walls. Others added banana peels to howling differentials for a better trade in value and every newspaper had an ad for for a toilet paper oil filter and/or aircraft type spark plugs. We learned and moved forward. At least most of us did.
Damn, I am dead and this is Hell! Here comes the devil with a rat rod. :( :( :(
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Oh, my!!! Here comes Earl Brown! Damn, Earl, I thought you would be here for something more common like fornication and not for daring to advance technology! Buck up! I hear winter is going to be a doozy this year. That is your pile of side seals by the Hudson Hornet. Sorry it has only one carb!
:player: :player:
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The window seal in front of my main porn computer had an avalance a few weeks ago.
For some reason I stacked up all the rope seals I pulled out of NOS covers I ported way back when. It's amazing the clutter they can make when hitting the floor and rolling under everything in my home arcade...
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good luck, guys. I agree, you should use silicone in those side seals.
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When it comes to stopping oil leaks in a Buick, luck is always good to have on one's side :cheers:
Good gamblers work on improving the odds so that luck has less to do with it. That's all we are doing-using modern silicone technology for a better seal. It's been proven for the past 20 years so maybe there will be another small leap forward coming up :atbeer:
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Drip lip was it was the small leap forward
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for woman-kind, perhaps
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Drip lip was it was the small leap forward
I'm amazed that thing is an actual thing that sells. His fillers are pretty sweet, but that drip lip is just silly.
It would literally be less trouble to wipe off the garage floor than it would to get under the car to change its tampon.
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Maybe for those that don't drive their cars and their wives complain about oil spots?
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(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/4154SEF4A0L._SX466_.jpg)
...and if the car doesn't move, how can the wife bitch about oil spots in ''her garage''?
Still amazed it made it to market. Kinda makes me wonder how many goofy ideas I've shelved that were viable.
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Quite a few, I would suspect.... :rock:
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tell her, "back to the kitchen with yee", I'll worry about the vehicles, driveway and garage.
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Give us a video on just how well that works, Rich! :cheers:
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I was telling him to try, i'm not near brave enough to try that here.
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I hadn't heard of this "drip lip" thingy yet, so I had to go see what it's about. Lol.
How are you going to know if there is oil in your Buick if it's not leaking....
It's part of what these cars are - sure you can seal them up for awhile, but eventually it'll leak again.
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Its a fiberglass torque converter cover that has a pocket for a paper towel on the bottom.
I guess if you really wanted to give one a test whirl, you could roll up a paper towel and stuff it in the drain hole on the factory unit.
...unless you're like me and didn't bother to reinstall the cover :)
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I was going to put a petcock in the bottom of the cover and just drain it now and again
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...unless you're like me and didn't bother to reinstall the cover :)
I did not bother to do that! :icon_smile:
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I was going to put a petcock in the bottom of the cover and just drain it now and again
Back in '98 when I first bought my GN, I took a tapered socket that wouldn't pass through that hole and flared it downwards. That way the oil droplets wouldn't hang around, they go ahead and drip out.
Now I have a GN that doesn't leak oil. (and no idea where my TC cover is at)