IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Scoobum on October 26 2017, 12:49:43 PM
-
Steve...if I read Erics instructions.. .if I shut off number 4...it says I can go to manual fuel. Does that mean I can adjust low/high gear fuel like 5.7? Or just high gear?
http://www.turbotweak.com/turbotweakinstructions61.pdf (http://www.turbotweak.com/turbotweakinstructions61.pdf)
P.S. I'll fill you in later on why.
-
Brad...if I read it correctly, to turn off closed loop fueling, you have to set 1,2,&3 to 99 or lower...then position four adds or subtracts from whatever Eric programmed as the default curve.
If you turn off pos 1 by setting it to 99 or lower, then it will run open loop to his programmed curve. NOW, I have never done this on a 6.1 chip because I never trusted anyone to leave closed loop.
I am not sure what would happen if you turned off pos 1, set an A/F with pos 2, left pos 3 (mid boost) turn to 99 or lower....My guess is that pos 4 would be used to trim the curve for pos 2 and I don't know what would allow you to control pos 1.
Best suggestion is to ask Eric.
-
Steve, I have a 5.7 alky chip for 60's I think I'm gonna have him throw in it till I figure out what's going on. It looks like the WB he has is fukd. Eric looked at the file and thinks the same. Boost is out of control as well. Between KR and boost spiking I don't know how the headgaskets are still intact. Thanks for the help. I put the same question to Eric. I'll get back.
-
Put some C-16 in the tank and most of these cheap wide bands will be dead on arrival. If I recall correctly, most of the screwy problems I chased on William's car went away with a new wideband
-
Heard back from Eric. Turn off WB correction and only WOT fuel is available. I found a quick way of testing the WB sensor.
He picked up a new WB sensor...but I'm curious about the old one. Boost spiked to 31.6...so that needs to be addressed before going WOT.
-
Okay, but which wideband correction? You have pos 1,2,3, that can set AF's. One of them is for mid range boost which is normally set off. What happens if you turn off one of the two remaining positions?
-
Keep up the discussion, guys! Good info to know. Looking forward to playing with my TT chip next spring. :cheers:
-
Steve...he wasn't specific. I gotta hit him up. Prolly doesn't know I'm a dumbass. Looking at it...it looks if you shut off 1, 2 and 3...that leaves 4 as your WOT manual setting. 8 gives you a manual setting as well. It's got me fukd up. I'll see what he says. I'm use to Eric spelling out everything in black and white in his instructions.
-
6.1 is the bastard child of 5.7 and SD2. Keep it simple or go all in
-
Nothing bastard about the 6.1. It's the chip I tell people to use because it works very well. Most people that go all in will slow down from what I have seen unless they have a pro helping them and then they don't go faster...they just get back to where they would be with the 6.1 :)
-
If you are spraying alky, or running E85, the finer points of tuning become blobs. A/F is not particularly critical anymore and we are only tuning for a 400-800 rpm band after we launch anyway.
Tuning for steet drivability is much harder if we want to optimize it.
-
Eric replied. Shut off 1, 2 and 3...and adjust WOT with 4.
-
got it!
I am going to start suggesting to only use the NTK sensor equipped wb's if there is ever a thought of using leaded race gas in the car
-
6.1 offers the advantage of not having to adjust fuel with temp/humidity changes. With 5.7 you best keep a close eye on temp/humidity on every run...and make your adjustment within minutes of making a pass. It's nothing for my car to drop 20 mv's on a 15 percent drop in humidity. Humidity trumps temperature every time.
If I could get unleaded race gas on the reserve I'd jump to 6.1...the race gas eats sensors alive. When I get the exhaust housing off my car in the spring I'll post a pic. The race gas has eaten it away horribly.
-
As I recall, the aftermarket fuel management systems come with the NTK sensor because they stand up to lead and heat better and longer.
-
Not sure which one I have. It didn't last long.
-
Bosch sensor
-
Nothing bastard about the 6.1. It's the chip I tell people to use because it works very well. Most people that go all in will slow down from what I have seen unless they have a pro helping them and then they don't go faster...they just get back to where they would be with the 6.1 :)
I didn't mean that in a derogatory manner Steve. I meant that you're tuning like a 5.7 chip with the advantages of the sensor input of a wideband with closed loop on the fly ECM fueling adjustments. Sort of a using different ways to skin the same cat.
-
Bosch sensor
http://www.nzefi.com/bosch-lsu-wide-band-airfuel-ratio-lambda-sensors-fail-often-aftermarket-performance-applications/ (http://www.nzefi.com/bosch-lsu-wide-band-airfuel-ratio-lambda-sensors-fail-often-aftermarket-performance-applications/)
-
Thanks for the link.
-
Leaded race gas...and I was turning on the sensor before starting the engine. Damn...
-
I've yet to get my 6.1 to run right. I think it's my W/B shooting me in the foot. I kinda wish I would have went SD or just bought the cheaper 5.7.
I turned off all my WB corrections now my NB O2's are low while my PLX is saying I'm cruising at 12:1. Bad part is it's never seen lead and only has a few thousand miles on it. If my car tablet hadn't died the minute I figured that out I would have tuned around it to see what would happen.
It's a reminder to never trust your tools blindly.
-
PLX WB Calibration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ8LRZBTqD8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ8LRZBTqD8)
-
Earl, you may be seeing low 02's during cruise...as Eric has lean cruise in his 5.7...and likely 6.1
-
Depends on which sensor you ask. NB says I'm good, WB says I'm fat as fuck.
What really sucks is I finally decided to make my car right since my free year runs out in December.... and my tablet fruits out within literally seconds. Buy a new one minus a HD, seller takes 9 days to mail it... and it fruits out when I install a drive.
-
sounds like you need a buddy with a tail pipe sniffer for comparison...n o entendres meant
-
More info for 6.1 users. Below 140 grams per second the NB looks after everything. From 140-220 the WB kicks in for mid boost. Eric himself shuts off mid boost and lets the NB do its thing. I think I read a post from Eric saying the boost comes up so fast that the WB has a hard time tracking it.
A few things from Eric.
Anytime you are using a WB to control fuel you need to pay more attention to it. The amount of time it lasts will vary greatly depending on operating conditions. As an example cold starts have a dirtier exhaust. A car that does many cold starts or just runs for a few minutes will have a shorter sensor life. The key is to monitor your correction and if it changes from the norm then take a closer look. The good thing that when the sensor starts to go bad at WOT they will almost always go lean so the correction goes up and the AFR gets richer.
-
Soooo, you're saying to install a cutout before the wideband on start up? :chin:
-
The AFX unit I have said it needs a 3 amp fuse and a dedicated 12 volts. I went right off the battery with 3 amp fuse under the hood. What I'll do from now on is fire the engine up...and then insert the fuse in the holder. In the past I was doing the opposite. After the run I'd pull the fuse.
-
just use a relay and hook the trigger side to the ignition
-
just use a relay and hook the trigger side to the ignition
Any 12 volt relay at my parts store...or a certain amperage as well? Go easy on me...electrica l ain't my gig.
-
Just a regular 30 amp relay for fog lights or such
-
just use a relay and hook the trigger side to the ignition
Any 12 volt relay at my parts store...or a certain amperage as well? Go easy on me...electrica l ain't my gig.
With less than a 3amp load, the biggest weakest POS you can find will be more than enough.
It's interesting that cold starts degrade a WB, yet they last 100,000 miles in a plain ole POS daily.
-
More info for 6.1 users. Below 140 grams per second the NB looks after everything. From 140-220 the WB kicks in for mid boost.
Eric himself shuts off mid boost and lets the NB do its thing. I think I read a post from Eric saying the boost comes up so fast that the WB has a hard time tracking it.
That's interesting data. Since the NB does everything below 140, that means nothing should have changed when I turned off all my WB correction... But it ran much different. A lot less knock but I still have a severe lean dip when I first give it a little gas.
That's the bad thing about the 6.1. It's designed to be in charge with an almost 'idiot proof' angle to it. Which NEVER works with me. I just can't do idiot proof.
I still think the data indicates I banged Murphy's wife in the past.
-
Earl, I have a locals car here doing almost the same thing. KR with the WB on is intermittent from 2.x to 7.x at WOT. Turn the WB off and it is intermittent 1.x to 2.x KR. Fuel pump is fairly new...which makes me think maybe the alky pump is getting weak...just a guess. He's installing an in car fuel pressure gauge and hooking it into PL. Like you, I don't understand why the WB KR is higher than NB KR. He has an AEM UEGO WB setup. Supposedly it doesn't have to be calibrated. The WB sensor is either good or bad.
-
Not sure if it has anything to do with your problems, but...
Last year, William's car running the AEM WB would always show a very high number in the blm box...usually be up in the 145 range at the line. We would change position 4 to a high number and still it would come up with a large correction number in the box.
We checked fuel pressure, flow, got Eric to reburn the chip thinking the 6262 and other things were just flowing more air than he anticipated, etc.
The NB readings were not unreasonable and the wb numbers at wide open throttle did not look that bad either at the end, but were showing a lot of correction early on.
One day, I was laying in my recliner dreaming of the fifties and the thought went thru my mind that the prior year he had put some race gas in the tank when the car was not running right. I got him to buy a new sensor and immediately, the correction factor in the blm dropped way down.
Now, we are all supposed to know that the Bosch sensors don't tolerate high temperatures (which we get from high boost), and they don't tolerate lead very long. That's why FAST and others use an NTK sensor.
Now, NTK reportedly does not like high pressure and will read off under high pressure but, we put our sensors after the turbo so high pressure (high back pressure) does not come into play-unless some one jams a couple of potatoes in the tail pipes. We did that in the fifties....
Unlike many, I am not convinced that the PLX set up is all that great compared to others either....with the Bosch sensor or any other option...but I could be wrong. But, I would not bet on it :D
-
Like Eric says. Keep an eye on the correction factor...and you'll know the WB sensor is beginning to fail. No different than watching the 02's or CC counts beginning to slow...you know the NB is on its way out. Or rewind a few months when the idle BLM's rose in my car...ended up the 02 sensor took a dump. As soon as you see a variance from the norm...then something's up. If you're gonna race one of these cars...everyth ing has to be perfect. Close ain't good enuf.
-
problem in this case was that the sensor had started to fail before he went to the 6.1 chip so there was no datum point to refer to.
-
If that's my case I don't have a starting point. I hate to shotgun my WB just for the hellovit. I guess I can. It would fall under Murphys law that I need a new WB sensor since I have like 30 Denso NB sensors here.
Today should be the last day of out cold snap but I still don't have a working tablet to data log.
Right now my WB is consistent and not erratic. I was just going to tune for whatever A/F reading runs best. I don't care if the W/B thinks I'm 21:1 at WOT. I have a feeling the chip won't let me deviate that far though.
This kinda crap reminds me of how people obsess over the numerical reading of the boost gauge. I give two craps about the number, I just want to be 2 PSI less than knock. If my boost gauge had a cow, a pencil, and a mononpoly shoe... I'd wanna be just shy of the shoe every time I floor it.
-
For those with 6.1. Eric says if you put in the wrong WB setting...just put the correct one in...and it'll follow the correct target for the file(s). No need to make a new run.
-
Like you, I don't understand why the WB KR is higher than NB KR. He has an AEM UEGO WB setup. Supposedly it doesn't have to be calibrated. The WB sensor is either good or bad.
Actually it makes sense. Before WB correction we trusted the chip burner to get close then adjusted fuel pressure, or chip fueling for a open loop WOT blast. Back then that was what we called 'tuning'.
Fast forward to WB correction.. Now we're closed loop and the NB sensor is the crazy uncle that talks but doesn't get listened to anymore.
If the WB reads rich as hell (but isn't) it'll start pulling fuel... If that extra leanness causes knock, that will explain why the WB knock is worse than with the correction turned off.
Right now I suspect my WB is wrong and saying my car is richer than it is. I broke down an replaced my active GM 02 with a brand new Denso just to see. It's pretty obvious that my WB and NB are not on the same page. So I think my crazy uncle is right and my PLX is feeding the ECM bad data. When I turn off the correction, the car runs better because I keep my 6.1 from running with correction, and that kinda verifies my theory of bad intel. (I'd be nice if I had a working computer to log my theory)
I did notice the other day my scanmaster voltage was reading much lower than battery voltage. That makes no sense to me unless the ECM has a flaky ground or the orange wire is compromised somewhere after the battery connection. I'm pretty sure the scanmaster reports ECM voltage, not in car power voltage.
What I might do today is monitor Scanmaster NB voltage, and WB at the same time. When I drove the car last I was crusing at 12 to 10 to 1 on WB and about .300 to .400V NB. A simple throttle chop and coast into the drive should tell the tale.. The plugs will come out clean as hell, or black as the cavity where my heart used to be.
-
Reading and the PL files I've looked at I've come to the conclusion if you have a good NB and WB sensor...the WB sensor is calibrated...a nd you picked the correct WB from the list Eric gives you...then all should be well. Saving a couple of bucks buying a used 5.7 or 6.1 chip burned for someone elses combination prolly isn't a good idea.
-
If you think of proportional band, the narrow band has a small(narrow band) and the wide band a larger(wide) band of reading capability. Here is an interesting link.
http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/AF%20Ratio%20Basics.html (http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/AF%20Ratio%20Basics.html)
-
Thanks for the link.
-
If you think of proportional band, the narrow band has a small(narrow band) and the wide band a larger(wide) band of reading capability. Here is an interesting link.
http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/AF%20Ratio%20Basics.html (http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/AF%20Ratio%20Basics.html)
Actually the NB isn't a 'band' at all. It's a switch. It only knows and reports 'yes/no' (and it's not really that good at it).
The only thing is knows if 14.7:1. It can only report above or below.
When the voltage varies, that's a product of EGT.
So if a working NB reports low voltage non-stop, you're lean. And the inverse is true, as of you're constantly showing high voltage, you're rich. BUT, you have no idea of the actual A/F ratio.
-
If you look at the graph the band is from .85v to 1.0v, no? Isn't the band .15v?
-
I know if I drop below 750 mv's I'll see KR. Makes no difference to me what the AF is.
-
That's a heat thing. And we all know knock loves some heats. And even makes some serious heats when it gets on the clock.
When it comes to narrow bands, anything above .450 is 'rich', and anything below. .450 is 'lean'.
If you were to ax how rich or lean, a NB just can't answer that querestion.
-
Okay, it's a heat thing. Below 750 mv's I see KR.
-
Not sure I'm following the heat thing. If you take the averaged/processed voltage pulses from a NB you will see the trend if it is running lean or rich. It just isn't so good/acuurate further away from stoic.
-
When things are going right, it goes back and forth between 'rich' and 'lean'.
A NB cannot tell you how rich or how lean a mixture is. Just if it's greater or less than 14.7.
When voltage deviates way further from .450V that distance isn't an indicator or A/F mixture, it's an indicator of heat.
-
I stand by my statement. If you look at the *averaged* amount of time spent above the switching point vs the amount of time below you have an indicator of how rich or lean you are. These are the mv we see on the scanmaster.
If it was a pure heat effect why would not we just tune by EGT sensors?
-
The narrow band sensors are very sensitive with regard to egt and pressure. Located before the turbo, they are subjected to a lot of pressure and they read differently under boost than they do at cruise at the same A/F...in my experience.
I can say that on my cars, at cruise, 000 on the NB is right at 17-1 on the A/F. I have gone to 000 and then taken out some more fuel until I got to the point of lean cruise misfire. These days, I set cruise to read about 010-020 for a hig 15s-low 16s A/F.
We know from experience that 770-780 works well for straight gasoline. On cars spraying alky, I have seen very low 700's with no detonation but I prefer 750-770 for safety's sake. I know most people don't agree with me, but, when you spray alky, most of the tuning sensitivity goes out the window...It's a waste of time to fret the tuning on an alky sprayed car. Those that have ever run a straight alky car know that the power band is very wide on the A/F scale. I suspect E85 cars are the same way.
I would argue that cylinder head temperature is more important the exhaust gas temperature. Airplane guys probably agree with this.
At cruise, egt's tend to increase either side of stoich. That has been stated frequently in the literature. Here is one such http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/EGT%20vs%20AF%20Tuning.html (http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/EGT%20vs%20AF%20Tuning.html)
Under boost, we see A/F's in the 10.8-10.9 range paralleling the 780 or so NB. When they don't, it's time to look for a problem.
-
How good/bad were the EGT gauges guys had mounted in the car with the probe in the downpipe that were used years ago. Haven't seen one in a while.
-
There was some problem with obtaining an interface that would work between the probe and PL as I recall altho they should have worked with various meters that displayed egt.
All the ones I saw, including mine, were mounted in the up pipe to the turbo beside the factory NB. Drill a hole in the up pipe and mount the probe with a ratchet style clamp just like a hose clamp.
In my opinion, they were a useless fad. Yes, they gave us average egt but what did we do with it? Some said we should not exceed 1500 degs for safety. I don't know what that means. I still tuned for no timing retard and was always close to 1600 degs. That was a SMC alky set up at the time.
In my opinion, again, the only real use would be on a dyno with one inserted into each header tube a few inches from the head. Then one could use the results for intake and head porting to obtain even flow and make further adjustments to fuel and/or spark on a per cylinder basis IF one has an aftermarket management system that provides that capability. That means we could tune to the weakest or the strongest cylinder depending on what our tools are. Might be worth a horse or two...or not
99.9% of us can't drive the car well enough consistently to avail ourselves of such gains.
-
I think Norbs had a scheme to monitor each cyl but I don't remember if he was logging or planning to trigger aborts based on abnormalities. When the single vendor stopped making the thru hole large conditioning chip for the sensors most hobby guys abandoned their projects.
-
Norbs had an EGT probe in each cylinder...a certain distance from each flange. He had a gizmo in the glovebox...and it would monitor each cylinder EGT...and then he could adjust it. I don't recall if he adjusted it via the gizmo...or via XFI.
-
The EGT 'gauge' I'm thinking of was about was 6 inches by 4 inches and had a digital readout. You'd have to watch it going down the track.
-
Yep.... But you could also log them....I think I tossed my meter recently
-
I think he persuade some brainy kid to build a 6-8 channel unit with a processor to monitor and output alarms. I think it lost favor to the vampire per cylinder monitor and retard thingy-which actually seems pretty useful.
-
Didn't RJC sell them at one time? One of the locals had one...possibly JUSTASIX??
-
Probably
Here's the one I had. Don't recall who I bought it from
-
Yeah, it looked something like that. Been awhile...lol!
-
Lol long time
-
The 1 I had came from Steve Monroe I believe,
In the diesel world an egt gauge is a valuable tool. In the gas world not so much but
-
Lol long time
Gonna snoop around see if I can find that gizmo Norbs had for individual cylinder EGT monitoring.
-
Fairly certain this is the EGT system: http://www.altronicsinc.com/data-recorders/redalert-egt-recorder-1.html (http://www.altronicsinc.com/data-recorders/redalert-egt-recorder-1.html)
And also this: http://www.jandssafeguard.com/ (http://www.jandssafeguard.com/)
-
Don't know if the second will work with our cars. I remember that he said his timing retard box would work on our cars so this might
-
I do believe there was a Safeguard ( Good memory Brad) model that worked with our cars. I think Charlie's hot air carb buddies ( Frankenstien?) also uses a model instead of that crazy Buick vacuum retard device (if that is what it does)
-
The JandS box that I referred to pulled timing by the cylinder