Author Topic: looking for Tuning help and suggestions  (Read 17086 times)

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Offline TURBOPOWERED68

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #15 on: January 24 2012, 08:45:24 AM »
Alternator --- Back of alt + to alt body -  = 14.53 volts
Battery + to battery -  = 14.23 Volts
Battery + to Alt body - = 14.10 Volts
Battery + to battery - with all accessories turned ON = 13.50

the scanmaster would be reading 13.50 or so but if i hit the car quickly the reading would drop as low as 12.7 to 12.8 This is with the car wormed up and in parking. 

       
Most talk about having thick skin but thats just BS.
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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #16 on: January 24 2012, 10:01:30 AM »
three tenths is a bit much to lose from the battery to the alternator so it would seem that cable is bad...I think there is a splice in it a few inches from the battery.  I recall one of my cars would get warm in a spot there when I had a drop...made a new cable from alternator to the battery and it went away.

Looks like the alternator is not well grounded on the case side also...I powdered coated the case on mine and lost a good bit until I took it back off and ground off the coating at the contact points.

What I do not see is what the alternator read terminal post to body with all accessories turned on.  You are losing way too much at the battery with the stuff turned on.  If the alternator is reading that low as well, then it looks like it needs to be fixed....If not, it looks like you need to work on those connections between battery and alternator.

I always check voltage drop....both positive and ground side.

meter on volts, one probe on clean spot on alternator case and the other probe on the engine...shoul d be less than a tenth volt reading...and the same on the case and to the negative post on the battery...read s total drop on the ground side between alternator case and battery....

Do the same between alternator terminal and battery positive post

On both ground and positive battery connections, try to get the probe on the battery post, itself, rather than the cable connector
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline SuperSix

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #17 on: January 25 2012, 08:47:45 AM »
From Turbopowered68:

"thanks for your help Ill do this tomorrow then ill post up the result."

I had to delete the post - it locked up the thread.

GOD I hate this web host.
'87 GN, 60lb, TA49, THDP, FTP cam, T+ lots o' shit - SOLD
'07 Ford F150 Lariat 2WD, 5.4L 3v - 255k
'20 Kubota BX2380. FEL, 60" deck
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Offline TURBOPOWERED68

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #18 on: January 25 2012, 09:38:33 AM »
From Turbopowered68:

"thanks for your help Ill do this tomorrow then ill post up the result."

I had to delete the post - it locked up the thread.

GOD I hate this web host.


Supersix
it happened when i tried to up load a picture??????
Most talk about having thick skin but thats just BS.
This damn attitude of "you didn't listen to us/me now you should burn in hell for it" really sucks.

Offline SuperSix

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #19 on: January 25 2012, 10:24:27 AM »
From Turbopowered68:

"thanks for your help Ill do this tomorrow then ill post up the result."

I had to delete the post - it locked up the thread.

GOD I hate this web host.
Supersix
it happened when i tried to up load a picture? ??? ??


I'm not sure why it happens. It's a server side issue - not an issue with the bulletin board software.

I am working on getting the board moved over - I am really sorry for the inconvenience.
'87 GN, 60lb, TA49, THDP, FTP cam, T+ lots o' shit - SOLD
'07 Ford F150 Lariat 2WD, 5.4L 3v - 255k
'20 Kubota BX2380. FEL, 60" deck
'78 IH/Case 184 Lo-Boy
'99 Kawasaki Bayou 400 4x4

Offline TURBOPOWERED68

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #20 on: January 25 2012, 01:22:04 PM »
From Turbopowered68:

"thanks for your help Ill do this tomorrow then ill post up the result."

I had to delete the post - it locked up the thread.

GOD I hate this web host.
Supersix
it happened when i tried to up load a picture? ??? ??


I'm not sure why it happens. It's a server side issue - not an issue with the bulletin board software.

I am working on getting the board moved over - I am really sorry for the inconvenience.


nothing to sorry about-- Thank you for making this place work :icon_super:
Most talk about having thick skin but thats just BS.
This damn attitude of "you didn't listen to us/me now you should burn in hell for it" really sucks.

Offline TURBOPOWERED68

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #21 on: January 28 2012, 01:33:46 AM »

I checked the alt. a few more different ways and at the battery and alt i am getting 13.50 and over with all things turned on and running.

SO where does the computer get power (+ and -)from?
i have to trace my wiring and find the weak link :icon_eyes: 


or get a hot wire kit for the ECM LOL

« Last Edit: January 28 2012, 09:47:51 AM by TURBOPOWERED68 »
Most talk about having thick skin but thats just BS.
This damn attitude of "you didn't listen to us/me now you should burn in hell for it" really sucks.

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #22 on: January 28 2012, 10:22:27 AM »
ecm gets power thru the ign switch via the ecm-ign fuse.

to properly measure voltage loss, you have to measure voltage drop across each component in the circuit, both positive side and ground side.

1.  Put your meter on Volts.
2.  Put one probe on the alternator case with the engine running and one probe on the engine block.
3.  Read the voltage on the meter.\

That gives you the voltage loss between the alternator case and the engine on the GROUND side.

4.  Put one probe on the engine block and the Negative terminal of the battery (not the cable connected to the battery but the actual battery terminal.
5.  Read the voltage.

That gives you the loss on the main battery ground cable.  (I bet that I have seen at least a dozen cars that people had either bought, or had worked on, that did not have the main ground cable connected to the engine)

6.  Put one probe on the Positive terminal of the alternator (not the end of the cable) and one probe on the end of the battery Positive terminal (not the actual cable)
7.  Read the voltage on the meter

That gives you the loss in the cable between the alternator on the POSITIVE side.

The voltage on the meter reflects the voltage that is being lost due to a bad connection or wire.  The meter shows the "escape path".  Many times, if there is no load on components, the lack of current draw will allow the voltage drop to be low but when there is a a higher draw demanded, the resistance of the poor connection will then show up as a higher voltage on the meter.  That is why I suggest to have the engine running.  Having the lites on, the fan running, etc. also will help show the problem better.


Be sure the probes are on a good connection point and not on a spot of rust/paint/grease/corrosion, etc.

You can check between the battery ground terminal and the inner fender sheet metal to check the quality of the sheet metal ground wire from the battery.

From the firewall back to the engine block.....we often have a ground strap between firewall and block...and/or a ground relocation kit that brings the grounds from the back of the head to a terminal box on the firewall which is, in turn, grounded by a strap to the block.

From battery positive terminal to starter post to check the loss across the positive cable.  Be sure the connection is tight at the starter.  Then the fusible links take the power to the bulkhead connector and into the car.  I have not seen too many cases of the problem being in the bulkhead connector as GM was pretty good at packing connectors with black goo to keep the moisture out.

Inside the car, check the ignition switch http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ignition_switch.htm  I have seen two cars that had a major drop under load at the switch...one of them my GN which always had a big gap between scanmaster and alternator and the problem was here.

Read across the fuse terminals on the ECM-IGN fuse...there should be no loss there...I have seen corroded fuse block terminals that went high resistance under load. 

Check the ecm connectors to make sure they don't have green corrosion (or any other color) layered on them.  And so on.

Check the ecm ground path as well.  You can check from the ecm metal case to the battery ground for the complete path.

Now, I should admit that I have seen a couple of cars that showed quite a difference between scantool and the alternator that I could not find a problem with and the voltage drop was minimal on both the plus and ground sides of the circuit.

What really counts is that the injectors, ignition, and fuel pump are getting good voltage-and they were in the above cases.  Take your manual and check the voltage on the appropriate feeds to those three items when the car is under load.  If above 13.5v, then call it good and obsess over something else :)  Heaven knows, these cars will give you plenty to do so.

I like the batteries that have the +/- terminals on top of them because it makes it easy to make a connection to eliminate the cables without having to have long arms.

Note that the ecm gets its main power thru the ecm ign fuse.  Not the orange wire from the battery as this is the ecm memory that maintains the chip programming.  This has to be connected for the car to start and run, but, it does not provide the power that the scantool reads...which according to the manual also feeds injectors, ignition...

Your manual is your friend when it comes to tracing out each leg of the journey!



Your initial readings appeared to show a big drop under the hood.  Your last comments did not provide any information with regard to drop that I could relate to the first.


Remember that the alternator will put out a bit more volts when first started and cold than afterward so let things stabilize and make sure voltage is not changing while you are making measurements.. .go back and reconfirm the beginning points once in awhile so you are not misled.


If anyone comes in and tells me there is no voltage on ground wires, I have some experiments I would like to run on you before you go start an alternator business.
« Last Edit: January 28 2012, 11:50:30 AM by Steve Wood »
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Offline Steve Wood

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #23 on: January 28 2012, 01:31:30 PM »
Normally, I don't like to see more than about three tenths drop from the alternator to the end.  In the real world, a good alternator will put out 13.9-14.4 at the back of the alternator, when under load with everything turned on.

Practically, as long as the components such as injectors, ignition, fuel pump, etc are seeing 13.5v or better when under load, then that is good enuf.

So much imported crap being used on even new, not rebuilt, alternators, that much of the stuff you buy may not be worth a damn when you buy it and six months down the road, it will not be better.  That is the reason I would rather find a junk yard alternator that most of the stuff you can buy.
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline TURBOPOWERED68

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #24 on: January 28 2012, 07:07:08 PM »
ecm gets power thru the ign switch via the ecm-ign fuse.

to properly measure voltage loss, you have to measure voltage drop across each component in the circuit, both positive side and ground side.

1.  Put your meter on Volts.
2.  Put one probe on the alternator case - Alt body to alt + =14.52 with the engine running and one probe on the engine block. - Alt + to engine block= 14.13
3.  Read the voltage on the meter.\

That gives you the voltage loss between the alternator case and the engine on the GROUND side.

4.  Put one probe on the engine block and the Negative terminal of the battery (not the cable connected to the battery but the actual battery terminal.--  i screwed this one up and went from Bat.+ to engine block = 14.16
5.  Read the voltage.

That gives you the loss on the main battery ground cable.  (I bet that I have seen at least a dozen cars that people had either bought, or had worked on, that did not have the main ground cable connected to the engine)

6.  Put one probe on the Positive terminal of the alternator (not the end of the cable) and one probe on the end of the battery Positive terminal (not the actual cable)
7.  Read the voltage on the meter .-  17

That gives you the loss in the cable between the alternator on the POSITIVE side.

The voltage on the meter reflects the voltage that is being lost due to a bad connection or wire.  The meter shows the "escape path".  Many times, if there is no load on components, the lack of current draw will allow the voltage drop to be low but when there is a a higher draw demanded, the resistance of the poor connection will then show up as a higher voltage on the meter.  That is why I suggest to have the engine running.  Having the lites on, the fan running, etc. also will help show the problem better.


Be sure the probes are on a good connection point and not on a spot of rust/paint/grease/corrosion, etc.

You can check between the battery ground terminal and the inner fender sheet metal to check the quality of the sheet metal ground wire from the battery.

From the firewall back to the engine block.....we often have a ground strap between firewall and block...and/or a ground relocation kit that brings the grounds from the back of the head to a terminal box on the firewall which is, in turn, grounded by a strap to the block. = .04

From battery positive terminal to starter post to check the loss across the positive cable.  Be sure the connection is tight at the starter.  Then the fusible links take the power to the bulkhead connector and into the car.  I have not seen too many cases of the problem being in the bulkhead connector as GM was pretty good at packing connectors with black goo to keep the moisture out. i couldn't get to the starter ill do that next.


i then checked the OE fuse block and that was at 12.9, 13.2, 13.3
the Caspers Dash matting wire harness fuse block was showing 13.50
 
i then went to the ECM to check the A6=pink/black, and that was showing 13.3 to 12.6 but mostly 12s.


i have left to check
1-bat. to starter
2-starter to the OE fuse block
3-OE fuse block to ignition switch
4- A6. to where ever i ends up at ?????   
5-the fuel pump's hot wire kit + and - at the pump or as close as i can get to it with out dropping the gas tank. i was actually going to do this today but it got dark and cold on me :013: [size=78%] [/size]
My long term plans are to rewire the complete front half of the car (dash to engine compartment)


So if my hunt doesn't go good i might just run a jumper (fused on both ends) directly from the battery straight to the OE fuse block.     
Most talk about having thick skin but thats just BS.
This damn attitude of "you didn't listen to us/me now you should burn in hell for it" really sucks.

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #25 on: January 28 2012, 08:31:11 PM »
 :icon_smile:
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline TURBOPOWERED68

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #26 on: January 31 2012, 07:32:02 PM »
Would it make sense to move the power wires off of the starter and only leave starter related wires at the starter?


i am thinking of going with a distribution block - like the ones used in stereo systems or just a bolt on a none conductive bracket.


basically a power wire off of the battery to a remote distribution block/point.
 
it would make checking things in the future easier.     
Most talk about having thick skin but thats just BS.
This damn attitude of "you didn't listen to us/me now you should burn in hell for it" really sucks.

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #27 on: January 31 2012, 07:38:51 PM »
That is the way the Casper's fusible link relocation box works...termin al box mounts by coolant reservoir, connected to the battery by a cable, then fusible links connect to box and wiring is extended to them....he adds one extra link to make up for the one on the factory wiring that has two circuits connected to it.
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

Offline TURBOPOWERED68

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #28 on: February 01 2012, 12:01:00 AM »
DAM :068:  i thought i was so smart with this great "new" idea that i came up with :icon_confused:


Cool i'll check it out
Most talk about having thick skin but thats just BS.
This damn attitude of "you didn't listen to us/me now you should burn in hell for it" really sucks.

Offline Steve Wood

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Re: looking for Tuning help and suggestions
« Reply #29 on: February 01 2012, 09:37:37 AM »
be a good time to get an upgraded battery cable that includes a bigger wire to the alternator, along with the starter positive, and the feed to the terminal box
Steve Wood

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A lot of broken parts does not make you a racer; it makes you a slow learner.

 

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