IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Shimy87 on May 15 2017, 11:21:17 AM
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Installed a 3 in DP, set waste gate to have about 1/32 inch tension to get onto pin. Have RJC boost controller maxed out and only pulls 19 LBS boost. with stock housing this setting would produce 26 LBS boost. Stupid question but if I adjust wastegate arm to 1/8-3/16 tension will it increase boost or is the boost controller going to override that setting?
Also related question, new DP has the large 1.5 inch puck. hole in turbo is 1 inch, whats the advantage of increasing the size of hole in turbo?
Thanks
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Sounds like your wastegate puck isn't sealing against the housing. The MBC should be depriving the wastegate of any pressure signal if it's working right.
Tighten the rod and see what that does. If boost stays the same, it's the puck.
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set the wastegate rod tension to an 1/8"
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I'd tell ya' to ditch the boost controller and adjust via the rod...but that's not the cool way of doing it...so disregard what I just said.
You can put a thin smear of orange silicone on the puck and apply it against the exhaust housing to check puck alignment. Leave the hole at 1 inch...anythin g larger and you may not be able to go much over 25 PSI. There's some physics involved...Ste ve can explain. If the puck doesn't align...RJC sells a shim.
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Thanks guys, I will check alignment, set it to 1/8 and go from there! :cheers:
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I've tried 2 boost controllers and neither one did I care for. One of them was the RJC. I run my car just set up the stock way and just control boost via the actuator rod and works ok for me.
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Manual boost controllers have there place but they aren't a 100% sure shot every single time.
If the faster spool causes the tires to blow away, the can can go slower. On the other hand, if the wastegate has to be stretched to 90% of it's available travel, the MBC can solve boost creep from not enough curtain area.
With any luck, the low boost issue here is because the puck doesn't have enough preload and the exhaust pressure is forcing it open a little.
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Well it finally stopped raining so I got it on the road. TPS sweeps nicely and I don't notice any miss ( must have just been paranoid before). The puck covers the hole pretty evenly, long story short, through different attempts even with the adjusting rod maxed out and the RJC controller maxed out I only get 20 LBS boost. I have zero exhaust leaks. When it cools off I'm going to pull the RJC controller and take it apart and see if something is wrong there. It builds boost very quickly, but wont go over 20. Its a new HD actuator. I have always had this issue with boost. The most I have ever gotten this car to make was 24. What else can I check?? How do I run without the controller, if that would allow it to make more boost? Car sounds and runs better than ever, I just need to get this sorted out and I should be able to hit my goal of 11"s easily
Thanks for any help!!
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Hook it up tuner style. Run the vacuum hose from the port on the turbo to the actuator. Toss the boost controller...a nd use the rod instead. If the puck is sealing...you should be able to run just about any boost you want.
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Yep, I'd pull the controller off. Got mine hooked up factory with a HD actuator and MINIMUM boost is 18psi
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tie the wastegate shut with wire and CAREFULLY give it the gas.
If you can only make 20PSI at WOT with the gate fully closed, that will eliminate all the controls and hoses as culprits.
I did that at the drag skrip one time since I had an unknown header leak. Tied shut I could only make 15 pounds at the time.
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What Earl said!
Also, do you have some insanely ported heads? There are guys that only get 24psi out of a TE44 but run high 10's.
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Plumb a different boost gauge into a vacuum line.
I wonder if your existing has a leak somewhere?
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Thought about this all night. Took it out and ran tuner style with the rod set to about 3/16 pull to pin....only hit 14 LBS boost. Either I have an exhaust leak ( doubting that cause I was anal when putting it all on) or the puck isn't sealing. It lines up but maybe it isn't pushing tightly flush to the turbo and not sealing the hole? This afternoon I will be checking all exhaust connections for leaks and then the puck situation. Thanks for the help as always :rock:
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Wire the puck closed as Earl suggested...if it does not make boost, then you have a leak most likely
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well as usual I was wrong, thought I was super careful about exhaust leak avoidance but.....wired puck closed and to the floor only 15 lbs boost. will be pulling cross over and headers and seeing if I can find any leaking areas? must be a pretty bad leak to cause this??
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Stupid question...but are you running a larger than stock crossover pipe?
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I'll take shit from all corners on this...but I don't give a fuck. I use an RJC turbo gasket and Felpro header gaskets. Yeah, I know. Never came from the factory with gaskets. My take is this. After a million heating/cooling cycles...shit warps. The Felpro header gaskets are hooked on the ends...and are easily removed and replaced. They don't last forever. Change mine once a year. Use a stock crossover pipe...a larger diameter will decrease velocity. Use new proper exhaust studs and nuts for the crossover pipe. I put my finger around the lip of the crossover when tightening to assure the pipe mates to the header evenly all the way around.
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No need to pull stuff off. Pour some top engine cleaner into the throttle body while running at 1500 rpm or so and look for smoke coming out of leaks. Tranny fluid will make smoke too.
Most common leaks are under the turbo, crossover pipe joints, and backside of #3\5 header welds
Also warped flanges will leak between the header and head
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I also use the felpro header gaskets with the same reasoning, they are both new. I also use a stock crossover. I put it on the same way as Scoob. I was going to tear into it and remembered Steve had told me about the "dump in the cleaner" trick. I did find one small leak on the drivers side header to crossover pipe, but that's the only one I can find with the smoke trick. Then when I found it I could see a pencil eraser size carbon mark it was leaving on the connection flange. Could that one small leak cause this?
Thanks again guys!!
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If he's got header leaks that are that bad that it will only boost to 15lbs with a HD actuator wouldn't these leaks be audible?
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The data Murphster has been putting up running a stock engine and turbo to its limit may shed some light on this. That back pressure that stock turbo is encountering is insane...at only 22 PSI. Shimy has a slightly larger than stock turbo...with a stock engine. That little turbo needs all the help it can get to overcome the back pressure...so any exhaust leak at all will be a killer.
Norbs pushed a stock turbo to 30 PSI...and it ate itself. The back pressure at 30 PSI must have been nuts...from what I've seen from the data at 22 PSI.
I don't think the puck is sealing either.
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With stock heads and IC, I'm betting Shimys turbo is all in at 24 PSI.
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Just going to throw this out there about exhaust leaks.
When I was trying to diagnose my rpm issue, I wired my puck open. 6262 with a precision .63 housing from 3k rpm to 5100 rpm and it made 11 pounds boost in a high gear pull. There's something to be said for increasing compression and not having any leaks prior to the turbine housing.
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Great thread!
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Check the cold side for leaks as well - I blew a weld on an intercooler once, but I was loud enough to hear, but I was limited to 15psi or so.
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well I found 4 leaks on the cross over pipe, none in the header areas and no cracks in the header. cleaned everything up good and put back together very carefully with new gasket and also used high temp silicone in the crossover connections. Waiting til tomorrow to fire it up and see if we made any progress.
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Be sure your O2s are 800 or less at full throttle as well. An overly rich a/f will not spool up either
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Thanks...going off of memory but I think during my last testing they were in the 812-820 area...I will have to pull some fuel.
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Erics low gear fueling is notoriously rich.
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Question.....I have a hell of a time finding these dang exhaust leaks with smoke. I was going to check to see if I got them all with a different method. I was going to set up a shop vac with hose in the ehxaust port of vacume and put the hose in one tail pipe. Duct tape up the other and with it blowing in spray soapy water in all the possible leak areas looking for bubbles. What I'm concerned about is blowing carbon soot or partials from exhaust into the turbo.....is this a valid concern or a non issue? This way I can be sure I got all leaks fixed if it won't bother the turbo. What do you guys think?
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the Alky Control kit will feed some serious sized turbos and it may pump too much for smaller turbos. In that case, one probably has to reduce the Initial setting in the main box under the dash so that the AF will not be so rich that the O2s are well into the 800's and the boost will be held down by lack of heat from the alky rich fueling.
It's probably important to understand that the initial control sets how much alky hits the airstream when you romp on it and the blue knob on the dash controller is a gain control that sets how fast the alky ramps up from the initial setting. Personally, I would not like to see higher .780 anywhere under full throttle...
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Thanks Steve...makes sence I will give it a try. Last year at the track my car didnt like O2s that low, anything under 790 and I would start to get knock in top of 3rd gear. I read some guys run as low as 750 but as I was leaning down 790 ish was my cars happy place. Maybe to much alky causing this??
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If you have too much alky, you probably will not be able to get the O2s below 800. Cars vary. Whether this is due to the combination, the particular O2 sensor, ambient conditions, or what, I don't know. That's the reason I rant "there are no magic numbers" all the time. We have to find what a particular car likes best.
I have seen some cars run 720 or so without a hint of knock. The problem with alky is that if we have too much flow at low boost, the combustion chamber does not produce enough heat to make the turbo spool as well as it should. So this limits the total boost. At the same time the alky controller adds more alky because it thinks the turbo is making more boost...so the engine bogs down because the engine is not getting the air it should be getting and we have a super rich, cool burning charge that makes no power. I did not say that well but you get the idea. Maybe....
In the end, we want a little alky at the beginning which ramps up as the combustion chamber temperatures increases but just enough to prevent detonation. If we have too little, the engine may come apart. If we have too much we have no power because we have killed combustion heat. It's a juggling act.
I think Zen is involved somehow
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Any chance we can get you to step up to a WB02 that reads out in Lambda?
http://www.partssa.com/downloads/2040198/Conversion+Table+lambda+air+fuel+ratio.pdf (http://www.partssa.com/downloads/2040198/Conversion+Table+lambda+air+fuel+ratio.pdf)
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A couple of thots...and If I'm wrong...then disregard what I've posted.
These cars rolled off the showroom floor running about 14 psi of boost on pump gas. If I'm not mistaken, alky is a fuel. If you introduce it much before 14 psi, then you're drowning the engine in fuel. Depending on how accurate the SMC progressive kit I had was, the alky turn on point I set was 12 to 13 psi.
On the first run of the day/evening I'd turn the WOT alky dial on my SMC kit to max. On each consecutive run I'd dial it back one notch...until I saw a hint of KR at the traps.
The more heat you throw at a turbo...the faster it'll spool. I dial back the low gear 02's to 780...and add anywhere from 4 to 6 degrees of low gear timing...depen ding on how well the track is hooking.
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Not a hint of exhaust. You'd almost think Scoob's got the low gear fueling dialed in.
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I think Steve & Scoob are onto something here for me. Ever since I got the alky and this turbo, I have had trouble with not enough boost. Checked and rechecked for exhaust leaks ( the ones I find are tiny carbon lines maybe 1/64th wide when I take things apart) so no large leaks. I have never touched the settings for the alky other than the gain knob. My turn on going by the red to green light is about 9 lbs boost. I have removed fuel by the TT chip but almost to the point of no adjustment left to get it to run. I think I'm spraying to much alky and to early and that has been my problem all along. Going to try turning the initial knob down a little and raising my turn on point to 10-11 LBS and see what happens? obviously small adjustments first but it all seems to add up to the problems I have been fighting for 3 years. I only want to get to 24-25 lbs and this turbo should be able to do that all day long.
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Shimy...set the low gear timing to 129. It'll hit sooner.
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When I first bought my Razor's kit the initial "turn on" point was approx 5-6 psi..........I could still easily make 22-23 psi
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Something to consider when playing with the alky settings is that the alky pump needs to be able to overcome the pressurized air charge in the up pipe, assuming your nozzle is mounted in the up pipe. That being said, if you adjust anything, be sure to leave the knob on the controller set at 6 to start with. Do you know what size orifice you have in the alky system?
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timing in first set to 129
alky system has whatever Julio sends out for Buicks??
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I will try once more. First, The alky control pump puts out a lot more alky volume than did the old SMC kit. Out of the box on the settings provided by Julio, it will easily handle a turbo 50% bigger than something more like a TE-44 or the modern 44 equivalents. This means the kit may spray too much alky and cool the charge too much to obtain higher boosts. An indication of this will be O2s that are somewhat above 800. I am not saying that your problem is too much alky...the said problem being lower than expected boost that will not come up, but, your O2s appear to be pretty rich so ???
I start off by running the car wot in third gear starting around 55-60 mph and accelerating as far in third as I dare to try to get a grasp on the O2s at the top part of third gear. Until I can nail this, I don't waste my time in low and second gears. Julio's instructions say put the blue gain knob around 5-6. If the O2s are too high, you can try lowering this setting a bit at a time to see if you can get the O2s where they should be.
Chances are, you may go all the way to 1 on the gain setting and still be too high on the O2s and be blowing black smoke out the tail pipes. You should not have any timing retard being shown but the car will not make the boost it should be making and the car will be slower than it should be.
In this case, put the blue gain knob back to 5-6 and go to the box under the dash and reduce the initial flow setting knob a little at a time until the O2s at the top end of third are where you want them.
The above is detailed on the last sheet of Julio's instructions for tuning.
The kit comes with a 10 gpm nozzle which is good for well into the tens.
After you get third gear dialed in, then you can start working on first gear with regard to timing and perhaps remove some fuel from the chip.
As you have an alky chip, I believe, you probably will not need to remove fuel from third gear but it might help when tuning at the track.
I have seen cars with the alky control kit make passes with a fuel pump that was barely working and not show much, if any, timing retard due to the high volume of alky being sprayed. That would not be my choice but I have seen cars run in the tens with a bad fuel pump...go figure.
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Thanks Steve, I did a ton of reading on this last night. I plan on doing exactly what you describe above, so far all testing has been the 60 mph and up in 3rd to see what boost and O2's are doing.
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Great input guys, I'll bet this is something I need to look at as well. :cheers:
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I love this thread!
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Steve...chime in on this. What if he were to barely pull the rod over the arm...and then adjust Erics low/high gear timing to Erics street chip timing...and turn the alky off...with say...10 percent high gear fuel added. It would take alky out of the equation. We'd need to know what Erics street chip timing is. I'm sure one of the guys has one. Just a thot.
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We started off not being able to build much boost....not sure what it would prove....that we could run 18 psi or so with no timing retard at 16 degs of timing if we took timing out?
As I said, I am not sure that being too rich is the problem, but, I have seen cars (like one of mine out in the shop) that won't make boost when the O2s get much over 800 mv so I may be on a tangent :D
My first thought was the wastegate rod...he had very little tension on it and we normally need about an 1/8" tension for the gate to seal and not get lifted off the seat while spooling....in my experience. That seems to not have been the problem. Wiring it closed did not make boost. He has some small leaks and that does not help, but, does not seem to be the problem.
Last time I saw this on some one else's car, he had some exhaust leaks including at the turbo mounting joint to the exhaust up pipe.
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Without being there...this is a tough one...at least for me. I'm wondering if he's having trouble even boosting it on the footbrake. I've had people tell me one thing...and when I get there...it's something different. I'd be interested to know how fast/slow it boosts with the alky turned on and off. It'd be a start. Time/boost can be recorded on PL.
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he's boosting from a 50-60 roll which should spool pretty quickly...
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he's boosting from a 50-60 roll which should spool pretty quickly...
Should hit his desired boost pressure pretty damn quick from that speed.
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Yep.... that's where the car has the most load on it. So he will have the most combustion heat and need the most alky
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update, took car to work this morning with the powerlogger. wastegate arm set at 3/16 pull just to be sure it was tight, alky gain knob set to 5, wot pull in 3rd from 55 to 85 mph, quickly builds boost to 18.8 lbs and O2's were high 830's low 840's. Continued to do this test, lowering the gain knob 1 number a time. same results with O2's each time, got all the way to 1 on the knob and same thing, 18ish boost and high 830 low 840 O2's.
Next step is to lower initial gradually. My concern here is I hope to get a transition where the O2's come down to 800 but if this is the boost issue, boost should start to come up to my desired level of 24lbs, I don't want this pendulum to swing over to quickly.....O2's drop and boost shoots up and I'm in the head gasket game again.
Question here, you guys think I should bump up the turn on point a touch? I think Scoob will say yes, not sure what Steve will think?
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Thought I would throw this out there but maybe I should just be quiet because I can't tune a radio. Did you try disabling your alky, turning everything down and see where your o2s are? Just to make sure everything's ok pre-alky.
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When in open loop I always tune for the most boost/timing with the supplementary injection system turned off, and then start adding it in along with more timing and boost.
If tuning in closed loop you can set your target AFR (or AFR curve - ie. richer at MBT, leaner at the top end), then massage the boost and timing curves to suit, while cranking up the alky or whatever.
In my Buick it was propane on around 18psi and alky in at 25psi, and ran it out to 30psi.
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The problem with that scenario (from my perspective) is that in third at 18 psi, it should be spooled and making heat so it should continue to increase in boost at that point.
On the other hand, if the mixture is dominated by alky, it may not. That is the reason that I think the beginning alky should be reduced by adjusting the initial flow amount down to get some heat back into the process. The gain knob will allow it to ramp up faster if needed toward the end of the process. I think Julio's instructions state that if the gain control is turned on and set to the minimum, you should be seeing some timing retard. If not, he suggests reducing the initial a little bit at a time until the gain control starts having the desired affect.
At this point, to avoid some confusion, maybe it would be worth a call to him and seek advice from the guy that really knows the system?
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Tuning to AFR with a tt chip.......don t know how
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Called Julio this morning and waiting for a call back
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I started from scratch and reread this thread...it's getting long. You wired the puck closed...and only got 15 PSI. My gut tells me either you have pre turbo leaks...the puck isn't sealing...or you made the hole in the exhaust housing too big. Everything I ever read says go no larger than .900...you went 1 inch. There's some physics involved here that I don't honestly understand in relation to going too big with the wastegate hole. Whether this is your problem or not, I don't know. I'm asking Steve to step in...cuz it'd be a good lesson for all of us to understand it. In my mind, you've pulled enuf WOT fuel that it should hit mid 20's boost easily. I'm out of ideas.
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Steve, Dan and I have installed a few of Julios systems with different sized turbos. With both Eric and Julios systems on default...and the boost set to a minimum of 20 psi...we haven't had an issue. The only problem we ran into was if the boost was set below 20...the car would bog in high gear from too much alky. Bump it to 20...shazzam! Like I said, I'm out of ideas. Contacting Julio is a good idea.
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Hole is un touched....no pre turbo leaks anymore.....im convinced Steve is correct and the alchy is drownding out combustion and not letting it build enough heat/boost. If I dont hear back from Julio today tomorrow I will lower initial and see what effect I get
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Are the vacuum hoses plumbed properly? Restricter in place? Tuner style with stock wastegate rod? What are you measuring boost with? Just throwing out ideas.
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I have seen a couple of cars do this with Julio's system...that is why I suggested cutting back on the initial flow rate after reading Julio's instructions.. .:)
There are so many possibilities. ..With a HD actuator, one should get about 18 psi with an 1/8" tension on the rod...wiring it should give close to 30 psi if one were dumb enuf to find out.
The only other idea I have is to put the factory dp back on and see what happens....As much as I hate working on cars, I would not be too interested in doing that LOL
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When in open loop I always tune for the most boost/timing with the supplementary injection system turned off, and then start adding it in along with more timing and boost.
If tuning in closed loop you can set your target AFR (or AFR curve - ie. richer at MBT, leaner at the top end), then massage the boost and timing curves to suit, while cranking up the alky or whatever.
In my Buick it was propane on around 18psi and alky in at 25psi, and ran it out to 30psi.
I can see a FEW people[engineers] cringing at this.
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I have seen a couple of cars do this with Julio's system...that is why I suggested cutting back on the initial flow rate after reading Julio's instructions.. .:)
There are so many possibilities. ..With a HD actuator, one should get about 18 psi with an 1/8" tension on the rod...wiring it should give close to 30 psi if one were dumb enuf to find out.
The only other idea I have is to put the factory dp back on and see what happens....As much as I hate working on cars, I would not be too interested in doing that LOL
There is one thorn in all m y hypotheses, he was apparently making more boost, rich, or not, before he swapped the downpipe.....
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Well there are different downpipes for different turbo"s so if they arn't matched then that would create problems.
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I don't recall if you unbolted the downpipe and pulled it away from the the turbo, or not. But, if the puck is not sealing, you should see carbon streaks emanating from the wastegate hole around the puck sealing area.
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Ported on the left...untouch ed on the right. Shimy...did you buy that turbo new...or used?
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Bought it new, looks like the one on the right and the dp puck is about an inch and a half round. Did some tweaking on the puck before and I think it is sealing well. Some background, with stock dp to achieve 24 lbs boost I had the boost controller maxed out. And had to take almost all adjustment available with the chip to lean it down to run well. I believe I was Alky heavy before also, but now with that issue and adding the free flow of the new dp and now it can't get to 24 lbs??? My hope is the less restrictive pipe is just making this "rich alky" issue become a larger issue. We will see. Thanks for all the input guys!!!!
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You THINK the puck is sealing well?
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Check it....look for carbon tracks. I have been fooled many times
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Should run leaner
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There were no carbon tracks when I checked it before. I will pull it and put a thin layer of grease on it and tap it a few times and confirm its sealing. I will post some pics.
I thought the free flowing dp would help my rich issue. it's always something with this dang car
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put the y hose back on That should raise the boost 4 pounds and try it. I used to run tuner style back when but wouldn't now.
Are you running an alky chip? If not try running with the alky turned off. If you want to run alky with a non alky chip you might have to play with the fuel pressure- eg lower it .
Course if you are running an alky chip well forget that.
Another thought are you running a volt booster of any kind.
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If it was drowning with too much alky, it would bog and not pull/make power. Your alky tank should be running out really fast if this is the case. How much does it use after a couple pulls?
Carbon tracks would'nt show up with just a few WOT runs. Takes a while.
Waste-gate actuators can be funny. I've had some that needed to be tighter than you would think to get them to work at the desired setting.
Years ago, the trick was borrow the wifes' lipstick and coat the puck with that. You should see a EVEN mark around the hole. Not off centre. Being careful not to smudge during re-installation of the downpipe.
Either it's not sealing properly or the waste-gate is weak where it's set and lifting slightly allowing boost to bleed off.
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This is what I use...orange silicone. Stays on if you decide to port it...and is easy to follow. Pic is my 6262. Yeah...it seals. That's the flange gasket from RJC Racing. Yes...those are new studs as well. No pre turbo leaks.
Exhaust wheel is white...damn near think Scoob's got the fueling dialed in. But you can't do it with NB...or can you?
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Ok some pics of the puck situation....i n my opinion it's ok.... one is with too much silicone, wiped it off and just re tapped with what was left on puck, one was before I started, no carbon tracks so I wiped it clean and you can se the witness mark from the puck
Trouble with pics....hang in there
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here ya go
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2 more
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Looks good. Steve's alky theory is prolly correct. Any word from Julio?
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not yet, he must have a life and is enjoying a weekend in stead of waiting for idiots like me to call him.... I will try him again Monday.....Tha nks!!
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Shimy, I had an issue with the biggie puck when I got it. It was hanging up on the inside of the flange if I pulled it all the way down. I hit the inside edge of the flange with the die grinder so it would swing freely. Check it...mite be making it stick open a tad.
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yes I thought of that also looking at the pic of the witness mark, VERY close to the flange......ge tting sick of putting this prick on and off and on and off....looks like off again to do that, just to eliminate all possibilities.
Thanks for the input!
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Time to port the WG hole.
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Any chance we can get you to step up to a WB02 that reads out in Lambda?
http://www.partssa.com/downloads/2040198/Conversion+Table+lambda+air+fuel+ratio.pdf (http://www.partssa.com/downloads/2040198/Conversion+Table+lambda+air+fuel+ratio.pdf)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrOFuKP4Tjg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrOFuKP4Tjg)
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Any chance we can get you to step up to a WB02 that reads out in Lambda?
http://www.partssa.com/downloads/2040198/Conversion+Table+lambda+air+fuel+ratio.pdf (http://www.partssa.com/downloads/2040198/Conversion+Table+lambda+air+fuel+ratio.pdf)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrOFuKP4Tjg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrOFuKP4Tjg)
Time to port the WG hole.
How would that help my situation
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Well if nothing else when you do get your boost building problem sorted out, you will be able to better control it.
I got a sweet Canadian Loonie that says if you tweak the puck arm "more shut" it will seal better. Your gooped up silicone trace looks weak.
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What looks weak? Seems to lay as flat as possible, even left a perfect circle in the metal of the turbo before
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It didn't fully transfer on the thin smear. The big goop one is just filling in thousandths of an inch of misalignment.
I am only speaking from experience here - I had a slow boost building issue for years with my Mease DP, did lots of fruitless arbitrary testing trying to fix it, turns out the puck arm (at the flapper) wasn't sealing properly. 10 seconds with a pair of pliers turned the car into a tire fryer.
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I would have smeared antiseize paper thin around the hole and slapped the puck closed a couple of times to see if it transferred to the puck....
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I will do that tomorrow when I grind the flange.....tha nks
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puck swing freely now, did before but not even close now. Attached new pics with anti sieze. It appears the puck is very slightly concave and contacts around the outside but not a flush contact. checked with straight edge and its hard to see anything but the antiseize shows it. anyway, it does contact all the way around and it is a very very thin layer on there. Should this be working correctly or is that concave puck the issue. If so how the hell do you remove that puck, I have a buddy with a machine shop that could surface grind it perfectly flat. I just cant believe that this is to "out of spec" to work properly but I obviously have some issue.
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Use a sharpening stone and lap it true. You only need about 60% of the puck's surface area to seal against the housing.
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I would not think that's the problem. As you tied the puck shut, I don't think it's a weak actuator spring. Otherwise I would tell you to verify the number on the actuator is correct for an HD
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What are your O2's reading at part throttle 0-4 psi of boost before the alky starts spraying? Again in third gear up close to 70 mph or so?
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spent a few hours trueing up the puck and checking, I get a good 1/4 seal all around so that's not the problem any more....took out and same dam thing 19 lbs boost. actuator rod set to 3/16 and then maxed out rjc controller and got 20 lbs with O2 in the 825 area. Tried the low boost pull and between 5-10 lbs its O2s were 815-820. Getting so frustrated that I'm tempted to put stock dp back on and see what happens. Still no call back from Julio but I did also turn up the turn on point and lower the initial...VERY slightly and if I jump on it in 3rd when boost shoots up to 20 I get a small knock blip to about 2 so I don't think messing with alky settings will be wise.
Im out of ideas and this bitch is beating me down :068:
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Have you checked the intake side for leaks?
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Maybe I missed it, have you tried it without the boost controller? Just hooked up stock or tuner style?
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Yea tried that....descid ed to put stock dp back on and see what happens.....ou t of ideas
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Helper spring on the WG?
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Helper spring on the WG?
He wired it shut and did not get more boost...so a helper spring probably won't help....
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Shimy, this thread has been of great interest to me. A couple of months ago, I had someone asking me for help and eventually he put an alky kit on it and the car was too rich. I never got anywhere trying to help him because he could not follow instructions and never would do all of what I asked him to try. I think he could make boost, but he kept setting the boost to 18 psi instead of increasing it to see if the car would lean down with boost.
then, you came along and could not make the boost it should...you had the alky kit and a new dp.
Two weeks ago, I finally got around to installing the alky control kit to replace the old SMC kit that died a couple of years ago and which I had rigged with various pumps, etc. I also installed a new boost controller. I did not have much time to play with it but when I did the other day, it was showing O2s ranging from 860-900 and would only pull 22# of boost. Shades of Shimy! LOL
I was convinced it was the alky kit but I turned it down a bit yesterday and it was still running 850-860 and pumping black smoke with no improvement in the boost.
I played with it a bit yesterday and started playing with the fueling in the chip yesterday and this morning and got it down to about 830. I noticed that it was running well in the 800's before the alky came on at light throttle so I have begun to look at the chip settings. This is an SD chip with a million settings so it is not simple to just pull fuel out without some careful consideration. I don't have a wb on the car and don't think it would help. I am running open loop. I don't recall ever having much problem setting it up or it being so rich.
Fuel pressure seems to be working properly but I am going to put a different gauge on it because it seems to be rich all the way from beginning to end. I put the old controller on it and that did not help the boost come up. My computations say that another 3psi of boost might bring the O2s into line...but, computations only count when they work.
I will try to find my other gauge tomorrow and I am going to wire the puck shut.
so don't get discouraged, it happens to all of us...at least to those of us that are honest! lololol
I think everybody knows but the parts # for the hd actuator should be 1011-144
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spent a few hours trueing up the puck and checking, I get a good 1/4 seal all around so that's not the problem any more....took out and same dam thing 19 lbs boost. actuator rod set to 3/16 and then maxed out rjc controller and got 20 lbs with O2 in the 825 area. Tried the low boost pull and between 5-10 lbs its O2s were 815-820. Getting so frustrated that I'm tempted to put stock dp back on and see what happens. Still no call back from Julio but I did also turn up the turn on point and lower the initial...VERY slightly and if I jump on it in 3rd when boost shoots up to 20 I get a small knock blip to about 2 so I don't think messing with alky settings will be wise.
Im out of ideas and this bitch is beating me down :068:
Reduce parameter 1 by about 4 numbers at a time until the third gear o2s get down to about 800. Don't know what effect this will have on the boost but it should run better
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Crank the waste-gate tighter.
Being a little rich is'nt killing the ability to make boost.
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Crank the waste-gate tighter.
Being a little rich is'nt killing the ability to make boost.
Would you explain to us how cranking it tighter will make more boost when wiring it closed will not?
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I cannot recall but does the Power Logger show IDC% and injector PW? These would be good indicators of either commanded base fuel being too high (high DC%), or an alky over run (low DC%).
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I cannot recall but does the Power Logger show IDC% and injector PW? These would be good indicators of either commanded base fuel being too high (high DC%), or an alky over run (low DC%).
PL displays both of those parameters
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Shimy, this thread has been of great interest to me. A couple of months ago, I had someone asking me for help and eventually he put an alky kit on it and the car was too rich. I never got anywhere trying to help him because he could not follow instructions and never would do all of what I asked him to try. I think he could make boost, but he kept setting the boost to 18 psi instead of increasing it to see if the car would lean down with boost.
then, you came along and could not make the boost it should...you had the alky kit and a new dp.
Two weeks ago, I finally got around to installing the alky control kit to replace the old SMC kit that died a couple of years ago and which I had rigged with various pumps, etc. I also installed a new boost controller. I did not have much time to play with it but when I did the other day, it was showing O2s ranging from 860-900 and would only pull 22# of boost. Shades of Shimy! LOL
I was convinced it was the alky kit but I turned it down a bit yesterday and it was still running 850-860 and pumping black smoke with no improvement in the boost.
I played with it a bit yesterday and started playing with the fueling in the chip yesterday and this morning and got it down to about 830. I noticed that it was running well in the 800's before the alky came on at light throttle so I have begun to look at the chip settings. This is an SD chip with a million settings so it is not simple to just pull fuel out without some careful consideration. I don't have a wb on the car and don't think it would help. I am running open loop. I don't recall ever having much problem setting it up or it being so rich.
Fuel pressure seems to be working properly but I am going to put a different gauge on it because it seems to be rich all the way from beginning to end. I put the old controller on it and that did not help the boost come up. My computations say that another 3psi of boost might bring the O2s into line...but, computations only count when they work.
I will try to find my other gauge tomorrow and I am going to wire the puck shut.
so don't get discouraged, it happens to all of us...at least to those of us that are honest! lololol
I think everybody knows but the parts # for the hd actuator should be 1011-144
Very well said Steve! All the power plants may be the same but the settings to get them to run where you like may not be the same. My engine combo doesn't like a WB leaner than 10.8 with alky. I still monitor the NB and with that 10.8 on the WB, I see low 750's on the NB at peak rpm
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Jason, that sounds right to me. Serious combos on alky are going to run quite a bit lower on A/F than they would on race gas because the stochiometric valve for methanol is much lower than that of gasoline...and when we run a blend of the two, we have a stochiometric point that is more like the average of the two when we take the percentage relationship of the two fuels into account. Some will tout the value of referring to lambda rather than A/F, but as we have a variable mixture, I prefer to use A/F and find out what is the magic number for our particular combination. Please feel free to punctuate the prior as you like lol
As you crank it up, you may find it likes 10.6 even more. In the end, we tend to forget specific numbers and just give it what works best no matter what the next guy in line says!
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h
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Laid awake last nite thinking about this...yes I obsess.....bee n chasing my tail so back to basics. I struggle finding exhaust leaks so I tried my shop vac idea blowing in the tail pipe and spray soapy water at connections. Well got no bubbles on drivers side header or crossover connections but did get small ones on back port passanger header and some at turbo connection. Pulled turbo and header, cleaned it all up and replaced gasket, siliconed crossover again and turbo connection, reassembled. Dont know if these were significant enough to cause trouble but its a start. Will test again for leaks tonight with same method.
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obsessing is much easier than busting your knuckles
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Im getting way to good at taking this thing apart :rolleyes;
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:D :D :D :D
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Im getting way to good at taking this thing apart :rolleyes;
Practice makes perfect. It makes it a lot quicker to repair when you know what size wrenches/sockets you need before climbing under the car
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I pull fuel till I see a hint of KR at the traps and the 1-2 and 2-3 shift. There's no magic number. For MY engine...750 is about as far as I can push it. Low 740's...and I start seeing KR. No 2 engines are alike. I've never paid attention to what Joe Blow says about a magic WB number.
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Crank the waste-gate tighter.
Being a little rich is'nt killing the ability to make boost.
Would you explain to us how cranking it tighter will make more boost when wiring it closed will not?
He makes 19-20 psi with everything hooked up.
Wired shut it only made 15. It was'nt wired completely 100%.
Back up. Old downpipe,wastegate, set up made 24-25 psi.
Swapped out new stuff, boost goes down.
If there were exhaust leaks, they've been there all along.
He has stated that turning down the alky does nothing to the boost level or A/F ratio.
My suggestion is that the wastegate rod needs more tension because I think it is lifting off the hole with boost.
That or the puck just is'nt sealing well at all.
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My money is still on a misaligned flapper arm.
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Houston....we have boost!!! :rock: First pull with WG arm set at 1/8 and boost controller in the middle and got 18 lbs.. :013: Stopped.... maxed out WG arm and shimmed boost controller and maxed it out, shot to 25 lbs and had to lift as alarm screeched. left WG arm and backed controller off 2 turns and on a 3rd gear pull from about 50 to 90 I get an initial boost spike to 23lbs and then flutters between a lowest of 20.4 and a high of 22.7....all on powerlogger. weird thing is the power logger shows this flutter reading but boost gauge shows the needle swing between 23 and 22. No knock as chip is on defaults and alky is back to delivered settings. you can feel the boost flutter in the seat of pants. end of run I'm at O2's of 811
Is this boost fluctuation normal? How can I smooth it out? I'd like to get a nice steady 24 lbs if I can.
As always, thanks for any help!!
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Sounds like the wastegate spring is weak....The actuator should not see boost until the boost controller allows the check ball to move off the seat. In this case, it sounds like pressure behind the puck is overcoming the spring pressure of the actuator and opening the puck a bit. The danger of shortening the actuator arm too much is that it limits the distance the puck can open and a large turbo will overwhelm the puck with volume and allow the boost to creep on up because the puck is not open enuf to handle the volume. (Note that sometimes we want the boost controller to open at a lower boost than the puck in cases where the tires will not handle being hit with such a high boost on launch)
As suggested by someone prior, a helper spring on the wastegate arm might allow the puck to open more at a higher boost and it might also remove some of the flutter from the puck. All this with a longer wastegate arm setting.
Enlarging the wastegate hole and puck size alter the physics of the matter.
Take three numbers out of the top gear fueling and see if you can get the O2s down a bit more..that may also help the boost fluctuation... which is not uncommon and it's hard to know if it is from the puck failing to stabilize completely or if the map sensor is completely stable in output. Sounds like the puck to me as you said you can feel it. Changing the fueling may have some affect as well.
Glad to see progress!
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That wastegate spring is a tight son of a whore. I have small visegrips I keep in the armrest to adjust my boost pressure. Vice grips and a fair amount of effort is needed to pull the rod over the arm. The grainger valve will allow the turbo to spool quicker...over the tuner setup I have. I read a post from Julio about the EGR diaphragm pulsating. Likely isn't your problem, but I eliminated the EGR on my car when I read it. I rigged up a device to check when my actuator opened last summer when I overboosted my engine to eliminate it as an issue. Numbers I gave Steve were to his satisfaction.. .so we moved on. You have to eliminate everything. It takes time and patience.
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I eliminated the egr also. So im clear....I should use a helper spring pulling the puck to the open position or the closed? I will pull some fuel also.....Thank s!!!!
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Closed- turn the boost controller back down before testing
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yes, you are supplementing the spring inside the wastegate so that the puck is held more firmly closed. This allows the puck to open further when activated. It's getting to the point, I need a big, young, kid to hook it over the arm. Actually, it got that way about five years ago. :D
Also, as I stated the other day, A/f can affect boost. The richer the mixture, the more back pressure we have as the gases try to exit thru the the turbine. It may not be a major change, but, I picked up 2 psi in boost three days ago by leaning the a/f down in a major sense. I have seen it several times since I started trying to tune Buicks.
Another thing that I have noticed is that changes in the A/F can affect compressor surge to a small degree as well. I believe this is probably due to exhaust spool starting earlier which affects compressor stall a bit. Makes me wonder if it will affect puck pulsation but I will defer to whatever Julio has said on the matter.
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:rock:
I'll just quietly sit here grinning.
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:rock:
I'll just quietly sit here grinning.
LOL.
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Awesome thread
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Been raining so no test yet but here what I did. Took a fish scale and the break point of actuator was 43 LBS on the scale ( don't care if accurate, just a gauge) then turned the rod back to 1/8 pull. Took a small eye bolt so I will have some adjustment and picked up a fairly stiff spring and drilled a hole in the WG actuator bracket and installed. Checked again with fish scale and this took it up to 45 lbs. Backed off the RJC controller 3 complete turns. I can post a pic of this mess later. Will adjust fueling as Steve recommended and forcast is no rain tomorrow so I hope to see if with some tweeking this will smooth out the boost.
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I think what is happening is that the boost inside the exhaust housing is pushing the puck open rather than the boost being sent thru the controller to the actuator. I think that the larger the hole in the housing behind the puck, the more leverage the exhaust pressure in the housing has on the puck.
At a certain point, the puck opens even though the controller has not signaled the actuator. Therefore, you may have the controller set to actuate at 25 psi but the puck opens on its own at maybe 21 psi.
Your approach with the helper spring seems right to me. What I don't know is what 2 extra psi of cracking pressure translates to with regard to the puck opening psi from the gas behind the puck.
I would be careful and watch the total boost when testing just in case it may make a large difference.
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Alky/water injection quips at about the 1hr 8min mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHtxXUCXhU4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHtxXUCXhU4)
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Finally got it out again. Making progress. boost feels very smooth but PL shows it does move up and down between 21 and 23. Can someone post a snapshot of a log screen with their boost at full push so I can see what another log looks like. Maybe I'm trying to get a nice smooth line and it isn't like that?? All 3rd gear runs from 50ish to 90+ Weird thing though, first pull was lower boost so I stopped, adjusted the boost controller and ran again, 22 lb boost, felt good and smooth, O2's at the end of run were 811 and absolutely 0 knock. Stopped, turned boost controller a half turn more, 23 lbs, felt smooth, 02's at end were 819 and I got a few little waves of knock, highest was .08 Strange that it got richer and I got knock? Will test more on way home but feel like I'm finally moving in the right direction :rock:
Thanks for all the help!!!
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It's not uncommon to see a little timing retard with rich mixtures. There have been some writers who claim there is such a thing as rich detonation but??? Having seen small amounts of timing retard associated with rich mixtures, I wonder if the combustion changes frequency and the knock sensor thinks it is hearing detonation and pulls timing when it may not be actual detonation.
True detonation does not normally show an intermittent timing retard pattern...once it begins, it rapidly increases in amplitude until you take your foot off the gas.
At any rate, if you are observing intermittent timing retard of low amplitude, I would add boost, and/or pull some fuel. Get the O2s down under 800.
Are you seeing the boost variation on your boost gauge or just on the map sensor display?
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Boost gauge is smooth...power logger graph is jumpy
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It may be that the map is not reading that consistently. I trust the gauge more than the map. Here is a pl file you can look at...the boost is jumping around over a 2 psi range if you look at it sample to sample...given there is about 20 samples per second, you can take the individual numbers with a grain of salt, imo.
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Where is your MAP located?
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When I ran alky I'd always see blips of KR. When I ran race gas...nothing. ..with the 02's being the same. My theory was the alky wasn't staying in a uniform pattern...with the alky pump possibly not staying at an even pressure.
If memory serves, I believe it was Julio that said the air rushing through the TB was something like 200-300 mph. If the alky pressure varied even slightly, I'd be thinking you'd see hints of KR. Just a theory.
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Map is in stock location on pass fender. log look like mine, gauge reads smooth so I think I'm ok. Alky theory seems sound to me. Will be bumping up the boost on gauge to 24 and will then tune from there. Thanks guys.....more info to follow when I can get some time. Putting in a paver patio so wife has me on a short leash with car fun right now.
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We are taking a theoretical constant 5.0 volt feed and supplying it to the map sensor which then sends a proportional analog voltage back to us which gets converted to a digital equivalent and then it is sampled 20+ times a second. On average, it is a good approximation. Same with the O2 voltage, fuel pressure sensor if so equipped, etc. All of them tend to come out with a lot of chatter which makes no sense at all other than we are screwing with the signal in a less than perfect sense. Ideally, we would apply a smoothing factor to the chatter and make it look more like the original analog signal.
That was a 10.3 run at 129 mph as I recall.
If we look too closely, we may over analyze things beyond the reliability of the data we are looking at.
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Thanks Steve...im the king of over anaylizing things. Tuning is much better/ more fun than dismanteling this old gal 10 times a day.cant imagine a 10.3, im shooting for upper 11's an fully expect that this year. :rock:
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So why not just put a quality pressure transducer into the plenum and run it straight into the datalogger? You could then treat that as your constant and just reference the MAP.
Quality transducers are far less sensitive to changes (voltage, pressure pulses, temp, etc) than an OEM MAP.
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I am using an SSI pressure sensor mounted in the plenum.
http://www.ssi-sensors.com/pdfs/Pressure%20Sensors/P51/PS-AN10_LOW%20GAUGE%20PRESSURE.pdf (http://www.ssi-sensors.com/pdfs/Pressure%20Sensors/P51/PS-AN10_LOW%20GAUGE%20PRESSURE.pdf)
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I am using an SSI pressure sensor mounted in the plenum.
http://www.ssi-sensors.com/pdfs/Pressure%20Sensors/P51/PS-AN10_LOW%20GAUGE%20PRESSURE.pdf (http://www.ssi-sensors.com/pdfs/Pressure%20Sensors/P51/PS-AN10_LOW%20GAUGE%20PRESSURE.pdf)
I knew there was something I liked about you.
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Made in my dad's home town. They were probably a gm supplier before they shut that plant down.
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I am using an SSI pressure sensor mounted in the plenum.
http://www.ssi-sensors.com/pdfs/Pressure%20Sensors/P51/PS-AN10_LOW%20GAUGE%20PRESSURE.pdf (http://www.ssi-sensors.com/pdfs/Pressure%20Sensors/P51/PS-AN10_LOW%20GAUGE%20PRESSURE.pdf)
I knew there was something I liked about you.
If I remember correctly, I think you turned me onto their products
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I am using an SSI pressure sensor mounted in the plenum.
http://www.ssi-sensors.com/pdfs/Pressure%20Sensors/P51/PS-AN10_LOW%20GAUGE%20PRESSURE.pdf (http://www.ssi-sensors.com/pdfs/Pressure%20Sensors/P51/PS-AN10_LOW%20GAUGE%20PRESSURE.pdf)
I knew there was something I liked about you.
If I remember correctly, I think you turned me onto their products
Maybe. ;)
This is my usual source: http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/wide_band_o2_files/WB_Pressure.htm (http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/wide_band_o2_files/WB_Pressure.htm)