IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: TURBOPOWERED68 on January 20 2012, 08:17:03 AM
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IDC close to 100 % and over a few times.
Alky kit (Razors) maxed out
anything close to 800 O2 got KR.
Fuel pump going south??
TT5.7 chip
42.5 injectors
Hot wired 340M (very old)
TE-6031
Dutt Neck
pocket ported heads (just a little)
bigger valves.
3 inch TH type DP
93 pump gas
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What was your fuel pressure at the end of the run?
The car is way rich for alky...I would expect .750-760's on the o2s. Maybe less.
Those injectors with alky should handle a 11.0 run and you are not close to that, it seems.
Without any fuel pressure data, I would guess the car is running on alky instead of primarily on gas. Richness is killing the boost and the detonation pattern looks like something that happens when the car is rich and not lean. The .8 file shows a big spike of something that looks like false detonation at the beginning and then is pretty clean afterward.
You should need no where that much alky spraying and just because you have pushed the injectors to max does not mean they are delivering that much fuel if the fuel pressure is not there.
Also, you have a problem with the alternator or its wiring as the voltage is too low under load. It should be over 13 at all times and when things are perfect, it should be over 13.5. It's hard to say for sure because scantools often reflect a lower voltage than is coming out of the alternator and we don't know if it is wiring/connections, or a flaky reading, but, still--it should not drop off under load the way it is.
That does not help anything.
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thanks Steve for the reply
No fuel pressure logging of alky logging yet
but they are both on the to do list before the car gets run hard again.
Voltage -- i have been fixing that problem in my head for quite some time now -- the plan is a new slightly larger Alt to battery wire and adding a few more and better grounds and adding a volt booster.
Fuel -- new fuel pump
and i definitely want to put in a wide band
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I would not do a volt booster-it is an unneeded bandaid and does not play well with Razor's kit. Should not be needed. Take your meter and start looking for voltage drops in circuits including the alternator case to ground. Check the ignition switch on the column as per my site, clean the appropriate fuse holders for the module and ecm, etc. It may also be that your alternator will not supply enuf amps under load...this is fairly common with old alternators... most places do not test them under load so they pass as good.
You cannot own one of these cars without a fuel pressure gauge...not reliably and hope to keep it together. So far, WB-762 from http://motorsportsinnovations.com/WB_Pressure.htm (http://motorsportsinnovations.com/WB_Pressure.htm) has worked well for me with PowerLogger... learned this from Motormouth Mike long ago.
A wideband will not help you fix what the O2 and timing retard is already telling you. Spend your money on things that are needed first.
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...learned this from Motormouth Mike long ago.
:add_wegbrech: :add_wegbrech: :add_wegbrech: Steve:1 Mike:0
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The things i am going to do are all going to be long term and BEFORE the car is raced or run at high boost.
My to do list priorities are as follows
1-Fuel pump - it's very old and was put in as a temp and really shouldn't be in service. - Look over the fuel pumps wiring and upgrade as needed.
2-Purchase and install a Wide band
3-Go over all of my electrical system - Grounds, leads, terminals and alt.
4-ADD Fuel and ALKY logging -- If its possible to do both. Steve them sensors look good i especially like the 12 Volt in and 1-5 Volt out as it doesn't tax the 5 volt supply from the TPS.
eventually i want to go with the TT 6.1 chip, 60lbs. injectors and do the wide band monitoring thing.
Anyway for now
I pulled the timing back down to 18/18 and the boost is on the lowest spring setting which is 20-21 PSI.
I am actively looking for a stock spring for the waste gate in order to bring the boost down to the lower or middle teens.
Id rather bring every thing down while i get the mods done and make sure everything is working as it should.
[size=78%] [/size]
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this was from a few weeks ago low timing and the lowest that i can get the boost with the current waste gate spring
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Nothing wrong with that log other than it is too rich...now if you still have the alky maxed out, then obviously you still have a problem as you should need hardly any alky at that level of boost with low timing. If your pump is tired and dying, it will only get worse until something goes bang one day.
Nothing wrong with the things on your list but the things you need to do is to find out if you have an alternator problem, or a wiring/connection problem. If the voltage is considerably higher at the back of the alternator than the scanmaster is reading, then you need to go thru the wiring. If it is within a couple of tenths of the scanmaster, then you probably need to improve the wiring/connections.
And find out what your fuel pressure is doing. If the pressure holds properly at one pound increase per pound of boost, then you have all the pump you need. Be sure you put a filter on it when you did the swap. I have seen several that did not.
Unless you are trying to dip into the Nines, I see no need to monitor the alky. The fuel pressure sender is nice for data logging. At the moment, a fp gauge on a long hose to reach the windshield is plenty.
The WB, I consider to be a waste unless you are down in the tens and looking for a few hundredths here and there. There are no magic a/f numbers no matter what the ricers at the wawa say. Each car is unique and it depends on combination, boost/timing levels, and ambient conditions. In the end you tune to find the most boost and timing you can run without detonation. Most of the guys that come here and say you have to have a wb are not running any faster now than they were ten years ago and they seem to have forgotten the basics of tuning...blind ed by the magic :rolleyes; Many are suffering information overload and they never got a grasp on the basics.
The timing retard patterns on the prior logs did not look like normal detonation to me...detonatio n seldom starts and stops..once it starts, it gets worse with every combustion stroke of the engine until you let off. Instead, it looked like false detonation on one log and the other looked like too much alky and not enuf gas.
Before one can make a car run faster, it must run properly with what it has unless there is evidence that something is bad. For instance, the average fuel pump drops 15%, and some times more, with each one volt drop in voltage. That is why we used to put volt boosters on the old fuel pumps to get more fuel. No need for that today. If you need a new alternator, get one for the 94-96 Impalas that is rated at 140 amps...they are a revised version of our alternators with some minor improvements. Otherwise, there is no need for any bigger and even our old 120 amp alternators put out all we need when working correctly no matter what some vendor tries to tell you.
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on that last log the alky was set at 6
The Alt is pretty new and is supposed to be a 160 or 180 amp.
as you suggest i'll start with that (ALT) and take it from there as i do the up grades to the car.
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I'm gonna agree and kinda disagree wth Steve on the wide band. In my case with the carb set up it's needed since you can't adjust the fuel curve in quite the same manor. In your case the old school reading the plugs will give you the basics. Once you get it where you are trying to get the most out of it then the wideband will help you out.
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It is simple...one wants to run the most boost and timing he can without timing retard. We can monitor timing retard. Altho the oem O2 is extremely non linear, it is very repeatable. One simply gradually removes fuel until he is on the verge of timing retard and then adds a couple percent back in for a safety margin. If one compares logs run to run, he will see the o2 is very close to the same number each time. It does not matter what the a/f number is...as that is just a number.
Every since I had a wb fail while going full throttle, I run open loop speed density and my o2s are right around 740 at 25 psi boost with alky...while my wide band is reading about 10.9.....but, who cares, I am running as I described in the first paragraph.
My cruise o2 is repeatedly within the 10-11 range and that consistently corresponds to about 15.5 on the wideband.
I have been playing with widebands since the Techedge kits were sold about 12 years ago. In fact, I went over and worked on a neighbors truck yesterday and took my Techedge. He was bitching about gas mileage and wanted a new carb. In fact, the advance weights were frozen up in the distributor...
But, I have learned there is no magic in a wideband and the old law still applies...as lean as possible without detonation...a dd a little more margin on the street for safety. These days, I keep receiving logs because someone thinks their car is too slow. So many times they tell me they set the af to 10.6 or such because ricky racecar on the board said that was the number...and the car is obviously pig rich because they did not find their own number...infor mation overload in the hands of someone that does not understand the basics of the process in the first place only adds to the confusion and the unhappiness.
One of my friends argued with me for two months that he needed bigger injectors and a bigger fuel pump because he was running 10.7 with two alky nozzles and 60lb injectors...he had detonation. I keep telling him, your car is pig rich and you could run Nines with that set up...finally, he put his fp gauge on it and it was dropping 10 psi under boost....he was smothering it with alky, his wb was telling him the car was 10.8-1 so it did him absolutely no good. Problem was that he did not understand what he was looking at and did not want to believe that it was something simple. He believed that all was good because of the wb and did not look at the timing retard pattern and the oem o2 which was in conflict. Amazing how well it ran with a new fuel pump and the alky trimmed back....dual feed alky is a real pain to tune even when there is a good pump in the tank.
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OK, i get your point.
i have the wide band on the list because i want to switch over to wide band monitoring. Which NOW because of your explanation of these numbers i'll try my best to tune it to what the car likes vs some one else's magic number.
in case it means something- the O2 sensor that i have been using for all of the above posted logs is a heated O2 sensor if that means or changes anything??
Also this is a log of my best run to date
time slip
60'-----1.675
330'----4.786
1/8-----7.452
MPH----91.83
1000'---9.771
1/4-----11.746
MPH----114.42[size=78%] [/size]
on this run the Alky was set to 6 position
and the car had the 5.6 Chip -- When i ordered the 5.7 chip i asked for a chip with the same exact settings.
Video [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukz-RFDQJ0k#ws]Turbo Chevelle My new best 11.74 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukz-RFDQJ0k[/YOUTUBE)
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I am not a big fan of heated sensors because they tend to lose range as they age, in my experience, instead of throwing a code. I prefer the original one wire sensor.
As I am running speed density chips, it is not crucial, but, I still use the readings for waypoints in order to know if something (like the fuel pump) is failing without having to connect PL>
I was referring more to Charley's comment in my rant than you :D but, the point is valid. People collect data in vast amounts and it does not good unless one understands it. Alky, altho a blessing, is also a curse because it can skew the data and hide a problem if one is not aware of the fact.
A few months ago, I was about three miles from the house after a 100 mile round trip. The fuel pump died and I made it home punching the alky test button for fuel....I see it often on the logs...alky cranked up to cover a fueling problem as I described in the prior rant. I learned it by experience over the past few years looking at logs and hanging around till the real cause was discovered.
Detonation is normally represented by an ever increasing level of timing retard. When I see a screwy pattern that comes and goes, I think alky as my first guess. Remember transitional knock? The non progressive systems used to give us a big splash when the alky first hit.
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Generally I don't argue a point, but since the C/T cars don't get the same controls as the injected ones except at lower cruise levels a wideband won't really do anything for my type of car. Between the stock O2 sensor before the turbo and then running a wideband or even a narowband after the turbo it helps when you go to tuning the carbed system. When you go WOT on one there's no controls for the fuel at all so you have to use the old school methods of reading plugs ect to tune them. The alky isn't done the same way either because of the design. The extra sensor system helps with this.
On a car where you have much better control of the fuel and timing then you really don't need one until you get to the point of squeezing the absolute last little bit of power out of the combo. That was the point I was making Steve. :)
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LOL
I was trying to stick to the reasons for not being as vital as some think on turbo'd 86/87s that are primarily street cars, or in transplants such as this one
Certainly don't disagree in a broader context when we get to non feedback-non O2'd car
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Alternator --- Back of alt + to alt body - = 14.53 volts
Battery + to battery - = 14.23 Volts
Battery + to Alt body - = 14.10 Volts
Battery + to battery - with all accessories turned ON = 13.50
the scanmaster would be reading 13.50 or so but if i hit the car quickly the reading would drop as low as 12.7 to 12.8 This is with the car wormed up and in parking.
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three tenths is a bit much to lose from the battery to the alternator so it would seem that cable is bad...I think there is a splice in it a few inches from the battery. I recall one of my cars would get warm in a spot there when I had a drop...made a new cable from alternator to the battery and it went away.
Looks like the alternator is not well grounded on the case side also...I powdered coated the case on mine and lost a good bit until I took it back off and ground off the coating at the contact points.
What I do not see is what the alternator read terminal post to body with all accessories turned on. You are losing way too much at the battery with the stuff turned on. If the alternator is reading that low as well, then it looks like it needs to be fixed....If not, it looks like you need to work on those connections between battery and alternator.
I always check voltage drop....both positive and ground side.
meter on volts, one probe on clean spot on alternator case and the other probe on the engine...shoul d be less than a tenth volt reading...and the same on the case and to the negative post on the battery...read s total drop on the ground side between alternator case and battery....
Do the same between alternator terminal and battery positive post
On both ground and positive battery connections, try to get the probe on the battery post, itself, rather than the cable connector
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From Turbopowered68:
"thanks for your help Ill do this tomorrow then ill post up the result."
I had to delete the post - it locked up the thread.
GOD I hate this web host.
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From Turbopowered68:
"thanks for your help Ill do this tomorrow then ill post up the result."
I had to delete the post - it locked up the thread.
GOD I hate this web host.
Supersix
it happened when i tried to up load a picture??????
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From Turbopowered68:
"thanks for your help Ill do this tomorrow then ill post up the result."
I had to delete the post - it locked up the thread.
GOD I hate this web host.
Supersix
it happened when i tried to up load a picture? ??? ??
I'm not sure why it happens. It's a server side issue - not an issue with the bulletin board software.
I am working on getting the board moved over - I am really sorry for the inconvenience.
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From Turbopowered68:
"thanks for your help Ill do this tomorrow then ill post up the result."
I had to delete the post - it locked up the thread.
GOD I hate this web host.
Supersix
it happened when i tried to up load a picture? ??? ??
I'm not sure why it happens. It's a server side issue - not an issue with the bulletin board software.
I am working on getting the board moved over - I am really sorry for the inconvenience.
nothing to sorry about-- Thank you for making this place work :icon_super:
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I checked the alt. a few more different ways and at the battery and alt i am getting 13.50 and over with all things turned on and running.
SO where does the computer get power (+ and -)from?
i have to trace my wiring and find the weak link :icon_eyes:
or get a hot wire kit for the ECM LOL
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ecm gets power thru the ign switch via the ecm-ign fuse.
to properly measure voltage loss, you have to measure voltage drop across each component in the circuit, both positive side and ground side.
1. Put your meter on Volts.
2. Put one probe on the alternator case with the engine running and one probe on the engine block.
3. Read the voltage on the meter.\
That gives you the voltage loss between the alternator case and the engine on the GROUND side.
4. Put one probe on the engine block and the Negative terminal of the battery (not the cable connected to the battery but the actual battery terminal.
5. Read the voltage.
That gives you the loss on the main battery ground cable. (I bet that I have seen at least a dozen cars that people had either bought, or had worked on, that did not have the main ground cable connected to the engine)
6. Put one probe on the Positive terminal of the alternator (not the end of the cable) and one probe on the end of the battery Positive terminal (not the actual cable)
7. Read the voltage on the meter
That gives you the loss in the cable between the alternator on the POSITIVE side.
The voltage on the meter reflects the voltage that is being lost due to a bad connection or wire. The meter shows the "escape path". Many times, if there is no load on components, the lack of current draw will allow the voltage drop to be low but when there is a a higher draw demanded, the resistance of the poor connection will then show up as a higher voltage on the meter. That is why I suggest to have the engine running. Having the lites on, the fan running, etc. also will help show the problem better.
Be sure the probes are on a good connection point and not on a spot of rust/paint/grease/corrosion, etc.
You can check between the battery ground terminal and the inner fender sheet metal to check the quality of the sheet metal ground wire from the battery.
From the firewall back to the engine block.....we often have a ground strap between firewall and block...and/or a ground relocation kit that brings the grounds from the back of the head to a terminal box on the firewall which is, in turn, grounded by a strap to the block.
From battery positive terminal to starter post to check the loss across the positive cable. Be sure the connection is tight at the starter. Then the fusible links take the power to the bulkhead connector and into the car. I have not seen too many cases of the problem being in the bulkhead connector as GM was pretty good at packing connectors with black goo to keep the moisture out.
Inside the car, check the ignition switch http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ignition_switch.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/ignition_switch.htm) I have seen two cars that had a major drop under load at the switch...one of them my GN which always had a big gap between scanmaster and alternator and the problem was here.
Read across the fuse terminals on the ECM-IGN fuse...there should be no loss there...I have seen corroded fuse block terminals that went high resistance under load.
Check the ecm connectors to make sure they don't have green corrosion (or any other color) layered on them. And so on.
Check the ecm ground path as well. You can check from the ecm metal case to the battery ground for the complete path.
Now, I should admit that I have seen a couple of cars that showed quite a difference between scantool and the alternator that I could not find a problem with and the voltage drop was minimal on both the plus and ground sides of the circuit.
What really counts is that the injectors, ignition, and fuel pump are getting good voltage-and they were in the above cases. Take your manual and check the voltage on the appropriate feeds to those three items when the car is under load. If above 13.5v, then call it good and obsess over something else :) Heaven knows, these cars will give you plenty to do so.
I like the batteries that have the +/- terminals on top of them because it makes it easy to make a connection to eliminate the cables without having to have long arms.
Note that the ecm gets its main power thru the ecm ign fuse. Not the orange wire from the battery as this is the ecm memory that maintains the chip programming. This has to be connected for the car to start and run, but, it does not provide the power that the scantool reads...which according to the manual also feeds injectors, ignition...
Your manual is your friend when it comes to tracing out each leg of the journey!
Your initial readings appeared to show a big drop under the hood. Your last comments did not provide any information with regard to drop that I could relate to the first.
Remember that the alternator will put out a bit more volts when first started and cold than afterward so let things stabilize and make sure voltage is not changing while you are making measurements.. .go back and reconfirm the beginning points once in awhile so you are not misled.
If anyone comes in and tells me there is no voltage on ground wires, I have some experiments I would like to run on you before you go start an alternator business.
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Normally, I don't like to see more than about three tenths drop from the alternator to the end. In the real world, a good alternator will put out 13.9-14.4 at the back of the alternator, when under load with everything turned on.
Practically, as long as the components such as injectors, ignition, fuel pump, etc are seeing 13.5v or better when under load, then that is good enuf.
So much imported crap being used on even new, not rebuilt, alternators, that much of the stuff you buy may not be worth a damn when you buy it and six months down the road, it will not be better. That is the reason I would rather find a junk yard alternator that most of the stuff you can buy.
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ecm gets power thru the ign switch via the ecm-ign fuse.
to properly measure voltage loss, you have to measure voltage drop across each component in the circuit, both positive side and ground side.
1. Put your meter on Volts.
2. Put one probe on the alternator case - Alt body to alt + =14.52 with the engine running and one probe on the engine block. - Alt + to engine block= 14.13
3. Read the voltage on the meter.\
That gives you the voltage loss between the alternator case and the engine on the GROUND side.
4. Put one probe on the engine block and the Negative terminal of the battery (not the cable connected to the battery but the actual battery terminal.-- i screwed this one up and went from Bat.+ to engine block = 14.16
5. Read the voltage.
That gives you the loss on the main battery ground cable. (I bet that I have seen at least a dozen cars that people had either bought, or had worked on, that did not have the main ground cable connected to the engine)
6. Put one probe on the Positive terminal of the alternator (not the end of the cable) and one probe on the end of the battery Positive terminal (not the actual cable)
7. Read the voltage on the meter .- 17
That gives you the loss in the cable between the alternator on the POSITIVE side.
The voltage on the meter reflects the voltage that is being lost due to a bad connection or wire. The meter shows the "escape path". Many times, if there is no load on components, the lack of current draw will allow the voltage drop to be low but when there is a a higher draw demanded, the resistance of the poor connection will then show up as a higher voltage on the meter. That is why I suggest to have the engine running. Having the lites on, the fan running, etc. also will help show the problem better.
Be sure the probes are on a good connection point and not on a spot of rust/paint/grease/corrosion, etc.
You can check between the battery ground terminal and the inner fender sheet metal to check the quality of the sheet metal ground wire from the battery.
From the firewall back to the engine block.....we often have a ground strap between firewall and block...and/or a ground relocation kit that brings the grounds from the back of the head to a terminal box on the firewall which is, in turn, grounded by a strap to the block. = .04
From battery positive terminal to starter post to check the loss across the positive cable. Be sure the connection is tight at the starter. Then the fusible links take the power to the bulkhead connector and into the car. I have not seen too many cases of the problem being in the bulkhead connector as GM was pretty good at packing connectors with black goo to keep the moisture out. i couldn't get to the starter ill do that next.
i then checked the OE fuse block and that was at 12.9, 13.2, 13.3
the Caspers Dash matting wire harness fuse block was showing 13.50
i then went to the ECM to check the A6=pink/black, and that was showing 13.3 to 12.6 but mostly 12s.
i have left to check
1-bat. to starter
2-starter to the OE fuse block
3-OE fuse block to ignition switch
4- A6. to where ever i ends up at ?????
5-the fuel pump's hot wire kit + and - at the pump or as close as i can get to it with out dropping the gas tank. i was actually going to do this today but it got dark and cold on me :013: [size=78%] [/size]
My long term plans are to rewire the complete front half of the car (dash to engine compartment)
So if my hunt doesn't go good i might just run a jumper (fused on both ends) directly from the battery straight to the OE fuse block.
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:icon_smile:
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Would it make sense to move the power wires off of the starter and only leave starter related wires at the starter?
i am thinking of going with a distribution block - like the ones used in stereo systems or just a bolt on a none conductive bracket.
basically a power wire off of the battery to a remote distribution block/point.
it would make checking things in the future easier.
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That is the way the Casper's fusible link relocation box works...termin al box mounts by coolant reservoir, connected to the battery by a cable, then fusible links connect to box and wiring is extended to them....he adds one extra link to make up for the one on the factory wiring that has two circuits connected to it.
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DAM :068: i thought i was so smart with this great "new" idea that i came up with :icon_confused:
Cool i'll check it out
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be a good time to get an upgraded battery cable that includes a bigger wire to the alternator, along with the starter positive, and the feed to the terminal box
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http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=5_6_10&products_id=617 (http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=5_6_10&products_id=617)
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Steve Wood (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=239)-You cannot own one of these cars without a fuel pressure gauge...not reliably and hope to keep it together. So far, WB-762 fromhttp://motorsportsinnovations.com/WB_Pressure.htm (http://motorsportsinnovations.com/WB_Pressure.htm)[size=78%] has worked well for me with PowerLogger.[/size]
I am putting together my MUST get parts list
2-For this part (WB-762) what else do i need to order with it to make it operational on my car? i have the Small round fuel pressure gauge that goes on the end of the fuel rail right next to the FP regulator. i also purchased but NEVER installed the Caspers fuel rail T.
In installing this sensor (WB-762) id still like to keep my current gauge. if at all possible - do you have a list of fittings required to complete this set up??
also why the this one (WB-762) which is 12 Volt in and 5 volt max out over the
WB-736b 5 volt input, 1 - 4.5 Volt out. Besides the -5 at the top?
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Being that I think all rail mounted gauges are junk and should be smashed with a big hammer, I don't have the part numbers for the adapters. I used this http://www.metcomotorsports.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MFF0001&cat=107 (http://www.metcomotorsports.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MFF0001&cat=107)
If I recall correctly, the two analog inputs on powerlogger are 5 volts-one of them is, anyway
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Being that I think all rail mounted gauges are junk and should be smashed with a big hammer, I don't have the part numbers for the adapters. I used this http://www.metcomotorsports.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MFF0001&cat=107 (http://www.metcomotorsports.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MFF0001&cat=107)
If I recall correctly, the two analog inputs on powerlogger are 5 volts-one of them is, anyway
thanks for the reply.
BTW both of the above mentioned sensors are also 5 volt output
just one gets 12 Volts in and the other gets 5 volts in.
[size=78%] [/size]
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oh, misread it...easy to supply switched 12 volts as it is 5v off the tps...either one should work in that case :)
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i just got an Innovate LC1 Not one of my priorities but the price was to good to pass up.
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should have bought three so you might have one that will work
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should have bought three so you might have one that will work
i think i just sold it :rock:
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Back to this Voltage issue
yesterday while working on the car, the battery died with just the dome light on and the fuel pump running 2-3 times for about 30 seconds.
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Was the battery truly dead? Did it come good after just a minute or two on the charger?
I have seen batteries go open and be dead as a door nail, then come back to life virtually as soon as a charger was connected...Wa s a defective battery.
Really not enuf data to give you an opinion here...
If something drained the battery that fast, you would probably have a fire starting in the cables or battery so something is missing here :)
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Was the battery truly dead? Did it come good after just a minute or two on the charger?
I have seen batteries go open and be dead as a door nail, then come back to life virtually as soon as a charger was connected...Wa s a defective battery.
Really not enuf data to give you an opinion here...
If something drained the battery that fast, you would probably have a fire starting in the cables or battery so something is missing here :)
The battery could not start the car.
once i jump it with another car it started right up
then after about ten minutes of the car running it was able to restart the car.
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sounds like it was basically dead, or open as i said....batter ies can fail in odd ways
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sounds like it was basically dead, or open as i said....batter ies can fail in odd ways
i have an old school tester Milton that puts a load on the battery i will dig it out and try that on the battery.
(http://mrcarts.com/prod_images_large/31151.jpg)
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that old school stuff comes in really handy these days. Lotsa places don't even understand how to test a battery or alternator.
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that old school stuff comes in really handy these days. Lotsa places don't even understand how to test a battery or alternator.
i am actually hoping that the battery isn't any good so that i can get past this hurdle already :013:
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New battery is in.
hopefully next week i'll have some time to test everything again.
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up date and changes.
Wide band -- logging
Fuel pressure logging
Translater and LS1 Maf
took the car out for spin today.
it felt real good.
these are the PL files.
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It's always nice to know what chip, and what wb so we can set PL up correctly in order to be able to make sense of the logs
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PowerLogger settings
Wideband - AEM Gauge 0/5
Anolog 4 - Pressure 100 PSI = fuel sensor
the sensor is slightly off - i need to retest the base pressure with a second known good gauge before i calibrate the PowerLogger. on my Fuel rail gauge (was tested about a year ago and it was accurate) it reads 43 at idle with the vacuum line OFF.
TT 5.7 Chip 93+ALKY
42.5 injectors
LS1 MAF
Translater set to on-on-on-off MAF base 0 and WOT -0
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were you spraying alky?
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were you spraying alky?
Yes, Julio's Kit Set to 5
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that explains why it is so rich at only 19# of boost, then.
I have not had time to look at all the logs, but, it was way lean at idle and part throttle...I will look at the others in a bit
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Okay, log 5 had a very strange spot in it...shows to be running 98 mph at part throttle, low boost, and 6000+ rpm. And, it did this extremely rapidly from where it started. this does not compute to me.
further in the run, you went to 25# of boost, the a/f was pretty close as far as I am concerned and the run looked good.
Right now, the idle needs to be fixed as it is way lean...should be about 13.5 on the AF and 780-800 on the O2. If you have some kinda cam in it, it may idle best a little richer...say about 13.0-1 and .800
Part throttle runs under boost are the hardest to evaluate because the throttle is not very far open, and the turbo is trying to shove air thru it anyway. This really stresses the chips ability to get the fueling fixed.
Looks like you got the voltage fixed.
What cam is in the car? Wondering about the rpm I was seeing in a couple of places.
Also what fuel pump did you put in it and did you check the fuel pressure with an accurate gauge afterward?
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gonna look at log 5 again to look at fuel pressure, etc that I forgot to look at...damn windows is updating...
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Okay, I am totally confused...at 17 psi, I see a maf reading of 256....sounds right.
At 26 psi of boost, I see a maf reading of 190 g/s
That does not compute.
Also, on log 5, there is no fuel pressure readings....so mething came loose.
Along with the screwy readings, I saw earlier in 5, it makes me wonder if the PL is making good contact...got me
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post #46 are the new files with the wideband and fuel logging.
the other files are the old ones.
The voltage thing was band-aided with a Reds Volt Booster.
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ah, #5 slipped in....cause it was next to the others in the folder....
Well, it's rich at idle, anyway
Red's volt booster was famous for burning up alternators, as I recall. Let me know when you have the basics sorted out and I will pay attention again
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ah, #5 slipped in....cause it was next to the others in the folder....
Well, it's rich at idle, anyway
Red's volt booster was famous for burning up alternators, as I recall. Let me know when you have the basics sorted out and I will pay attention again
thank you
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I am sure you also know that Julio says no volt boosters should be used with his kits and that there is a mod that should be made when using his kit with a Translator to prevent interference.
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I am sure you also know that Julio says no volt boosters should be used with his kits and that there is a mod that should be made when using his kit with a Translator to prevent interference.
Yes i am aware that Julio Recommends that a Volt Booster Should NOT be used as it will change the flow characteristic s of the system.
I am also aware that many guys DO use Julio's Kit and a Volt Booster with success, they do say that it requires a bit MORE tuning of the ALKY controller to adjust for the Voltage spike.
What i did notice is that on my "5-23-2012 2.dat" PL file the Voltage never went above 14.5 .
Now what is considered to be normal Voltage with OUT a Volt Booster?
I have seen and heard of guys seeing upwards of 15 Volts when using a volt booster ????
I know that at this point i am a certified idiot but with only spiking the Voltage to 14.5 it Should not be a bill deal compared to some one seen 15-16 Volts.
on the Translater i never heard anything about it causing and interference or needing a MOD when being used with an ALKY system.
i'll call or Email the horse today to confirm this.
As i said many times
Thank you for taking your time and educating me.
especially since it seems that i am trying to do things as backwards on purpose.
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Oh my, I guess you told me! :D
First...
Please give me no credit for educating you. Any fair minded grader would give me an F minus as I have failed in every aspect. :O I don't feel too badly, however, because I think it is an impossible task.
Now, one cannot tune around a voltage spike. One has to sacrifice something in order to minimize the effect of the spike. Therefore, one is making the best of a bad situation rather than addressing the real issues.
A CS144 alternator will put out 14.4 volts on a cold start. These alternators have a thermal sensor in them that reduces the voltage as the under-hood temps rise. This higher voltage on start up helps overcome the higher battery internal resistance when it is cold. This resistance drops as the battery warms up and therefore less voltage is required to maintain the battery charge.
When everything is in proper working order, you should be reading 13.8-14.2 volts at the back of the alternator and using the case as a ground. What you read elsewhere will be dependent upon the quality of your wiring and the connections-both on the positive side of the equation, and on the ground half.
Volt Boosters were originally intended to provide a boost in voltage to the fuel pump to overcome the lack of flow in the early pumps that were available to us. Pump output would increase by 15-20% for each additional volt delivered to the pump. Some also thought that the ignition might benefit as well altho this has since been discounted somewhat on a system that is working properly. Some have even "rigged" hot wires to the ignition rather than fixing the actual problem.
I recall that Red, or someone, actually installed a nicad battery pack to supply more power to the pump, but, this was quickly followed by the Volt Booster, but, by 1988 or so, enuf alternators had been destroyed that people had pulled most of them off and thrown them in the junk pile.
Harry (PTE), and others used to sell a manual regulator which replaced the internal regulator in the alternator. You could adjust the voltage with a screw driver when you wanted more at the track (say 15.5 v) and then lower it when the night was over. I have a new one still in the baggy out in the shop some place.
14.4-14.5 volts will not hurt anything altho it may slightly shorten bulb life. The ecm, injectors, etc. are regulated so they can handle it. Once you get into the 15's a steady diet may burn out more things that you wish to buy.
Today, such gimmicks are not needed and are just another thing to go wrong and cause problems. We have fuel pumps that don't need that kinda voltage to supply sufficient flow and we know the ignition and injectors don't need it.
Low voltage (my definition is below 13.5 volts under load can cause more problems than dim headlights, however.
I noticed yesterday that your fuel pressure was still falling off under boost and that you are pumping way too much alky for 19 psi of boost. I guess it helps keep the cylinder walls nice and clean but it does nothing for performance. The car was also very rich at idle which does nothing for the turbo spool just as too much alky does not.
I will try to refrain from helping you anymore as even I cannot abide a steady diet of failure :)
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Funny shit.
Thanks again for your efforts.
BTW I wasn't trying "tell you" or pretend to know better or to know more than you. I have nothing but a great amount of respect for you and the other guys on here. I am truly sorry that you took my previous post the wrong way.
I guess ill just take a good walk.
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No worries, Thanks for the entertainment :)
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As I said, No worries....
I was just trying to help you get that .75 secs out of your car that you are missing by fixing the things that are obviously wrong with it.
I have learned that bandaiding problems instead of fixing them often leads to far more expensive problems. Sometimes we just have to learn for ourselves and all the help in the world cannot change that. The old adage about learning from history certainly applies to cars and it is usually cheaper than learning from ones own experiences.
This is the internet and attitude is to be expected. At my age, I can only laugh. :)